Justice Committee on May 11th, 2009

[Eric Sterling]

The first thing is to think about organized crime rather than simply the drugs themselves. Do your police have adequate intelligence units? Do they have the ability to go after assets? Do you have laws that permit wiretapping? Do you go undercover? There are a variety of tools. In the United States, we have poured a great deal of money into our Federal Bureau of Investigation and numerous other federal law enforcement agencies. We've experienced quite a reduction in street crime. I'm not sure that folks would say that we've driven organized crime out of the businesses like waste-hauling, construction, money-laundering, prostitution, pornography. There's still an awful lot of money that organized crime is making in these areas in the United States.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

My question is for Mr. White or Mr. Gauthier, if you have read the bill that we want to table.

I want to start with a short comment so that you can tell me if you think this will help us. The purpose of this bill is in fact to support the work that is being done on the ground, at least that is the assumption.

I am interested in one case. I know that certain witnesses would like drugs to be made legal and would like the government to “sell” them. We want to increase the penalty for GHB, the date rape drug. I cannot believe that one would want to reduce the penalty for that when we know that this drug is not purchased by the consumer, like heroin is. This is the only case in which an individual buys the drug to attack someone, usually a woman. That is what is so serious and that is why we want to increase the penalty. That is one part of the legislation I am interested in.

Do you see the difference? There is a difference between someone who buys drugs and consumes them and someone who buys drugs to attack women. That is what is so serious. Do you see that difference in the bill? Do you think it will help you protect women against this terrifying drug?

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

I can answer that question.

In the enforcement piece of the Ottawa Police Service drug unit, we target dealers involved in the sale of Ketamine, GHB, and Rohypnol, mostly to bars. The dealers will go to bars and traffic. At times, we have occasion to put undercover officers into bars, and they see the drugs going from the dealer to the bartender. I'm not telling you that all bartenders are bad; I'm just telling you that these drugs find their way behind the bars sometimes. It is known that these drugs are extremely dangerous—Ketamine, GHB, Rohypnol. They are not always used to spike drinks, but that is their main purpose. The legislation should address that. These drugs need to be controlled. The enforcement that we are applying to this type of drug is important, and we need to continue it. It is readily available. We see it mostly within the bar district here in the city of Ottawa.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

You have two minutes left.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Gauthier, you explained your work to us but you did not answer my question. I am supporting this bill because it serves the goal of protecting society and especially because it deals with the person purchasing GHB, not the person consuming it. That purchaser uses it to attack women. Will this bill help deal with what you are seeing on the ground? I am not a policeman. I want to know if being stricter in GHB cases will help protect women.

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

The answer is yes. That drug exists and people use it exactly for the purpose you mentioned. It is therefore very important that it be included in the bill. That is something we support.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Mr. Storseth.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I want to thank our witnesses today, those appearing by video conference and those appearing before us. This is a very important piece of legislation, as I'm sure you're all aware.

Mr. White, I'd like ask you a couple of questions that are specifically in regard to some of the things we've heard at committee today about how important the message is that you're sending to society. I think it's not just the criminals that you're targeting with this, but generally society as a whole, in regard to knowing that there are very real punishments, and not just maximums, which are far too seldom put in place, but also minimums that you'll be going to jail for.

There is doubt here today as to whether criminals get that message. At prior committee meetings, we've had testimony stating that the average drug dealer has about seven prior convictions in 13 years of criminal history. In your experience, is that similar to the City of Ottawa? Would you believe those numbers?

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

Can I answer that question?

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Yes, absolutely.

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

Did you mention that most drug dealers have seven prior convictions?

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

That's what we've heard in other testimony. Basically, they're recidivists.

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

I would tend to say that if they have seven previous convictions, most of those convictions, I would hope, would be possession convictions. Is that where you're going?

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

I'm just telling you about testimony we've already had.

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

Well, it all depends what convictions you're talking about. If you're saying that a drug dealer has seven prior trafficking convictions, I'd find that very high.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Well, let's not get caught on the number. Would you agree, though, that they're usually recidivists, that they're usually people who have committed felonies or crimes before and are being caught again?

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

Yes.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Is it your experience that these individuals who are recidivists and have had several run-ins with the law know what the punishments are and know the ins and outs of the legislation? Or do they seem to have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever when it comes to dealing with the law?

[Chief Vernon White]

Thank you very much.

That's interesting, because some of the folks I speak to both at the detention centre and at a local treatment centre called Harvest House have extensive criminal records, and often, in fact, at least some of that criminal record is for trafficking. I think they probably understand the law very well.

I think I've referred to the two-for-one legislation specifically when talking to prisoners about how they understand better than I some days--and, I would suggest, better than some people in the legal profession--what they have to do to get through the system. I don't question the fact that they understand the legislation, at least on what's going to happen to them. I think that's why we see a number of them using young people or young offenders to commit the crimes: because they understand that what's going to happen to the young person is a lot less and typically has no impact on them.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Yes, and we'll get into that at another time.

I appreciate that comment, because from my admittedly relatively small experience with individuals like this, they seem to really know what is on the line and exactly what they're doing.

I'd like to get off this just for one second to go to Mr. Gauthier. You commented on search and seizure and the search warrants you have with the City of Ottawa. Oftentimes you experience weapons being in these caches of drugs. What kinds of weapons are you talking about here? Are they single action rifles? What weapons are you talking about?

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

We find many sawed-off 12-gauge shotguns. For some reason that seems to be the weapon that drug dealers enjoy having in their possession for protection. We find many small handguns in their possession as well. Of course, drug dealers will carry knives and other weapons that they can hide under the bed. But as far as firearms are concerned, it is the sawed-off weapons and small ones.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Are they predominantly registered?

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

No. I'm sorry, but they're not.