Justice Committee on May 11th, 2009

[Prof. Bruce Alexander]

No.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Sterling.

[Eric Sterling]

I haven't seen any. I'm not aware of any studies that demonstrate that mandatory minimums are effective in carrying out the policies of the legislature.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Gauthier, I do not question in any way your ability to work in this field and to infiltrate it, especially. We're in the process of studying this issue. I have one question for you. Are you able to show us that the bill currently under consideration will not only reduce the number of consumers, but furthermore, get drugs off the streets of Ottawa?

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

I cannot show you...

I can't answer that this piece of legislation is going to remove drugs from the streets of Ottawa, absolutely not. I will tell you that this piece of legislation will address some of the serious issues that are not currently being addressed, in ways that will assist us to do a better job.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Can you give us an example?

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

It will assist us in removing people who have firearms and putting them in jail and giving them sentences. It will assist us in targeting areas with better tools, areas like schools, especially, the fact that people are—

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'll stop you there because I remember what you said earlier. Some of the Criminal Code articles are already very clear with respect to individuals who use firearms during the commission of a crime.

You will agree with me that around schools, you're usually dealing with young people who are 15, 16 or 17 years old. This bill does not cover those young people.

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

This bill—

This bill targets criminal groups that will use younger children, use children to the benefit of the group.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I do not question your competency at all. I am absolutely convinced that you are very competent and that you are familiar with the groups of dealers in the Ottawa area. You're more or less familiar with them. You have a good idea of where they hang out, whether it be in the Byward Market or elsewhere. You are familiar with the groups you're dealing with.

Do you truly think this bill will help you?

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

We are not only attempting to control the groups who work in the streets. We are also fighting against the people who control those groups.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Fine.

When I practised law—and I did often and for a long time—we had to try to find out who the small dealer who was operating near a school was buying his merchandise from, because he did answer to someone. You are not necessarily interested in the small dealer, but rather their supplier, the one buying his drugs from the Hells Angels or the Bandidos, or whomever, these drugs come from everywhere. Those are the people you're interested in.

Do you think this bill will assist you?

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

We work on three levels. We're fighting the groups working in the streets, we're fighting the higher-level organized crime groups and we're supporting the agents who are focusing on the groups causing problems in some of the city's neighbourhoods.

With respect to the bigger groups like the Hells Angels, they hire young people to do their work for them. So if there is a debt to collect, some individuals...

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

—will attempt to recover the money—

[S/Sgt Pierre Gauthier]

—with firearms.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you. We're at the end of your time.

We're moving on now to Mr. Rathgeber for five minutes.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses, both here and appearing by video conference.

My questions are for Chief White. First of all, thank you very much for your support for this bill and also for Bill C-25, the ending of the two-for-one credit for remand. I first became aware of that issue when I read on the front page of the Ottawa Citizen some comments you made about four or five or six months ago. So thank you.

This committee travelled to Vancouver the week before last, and there and here last Monday, when we were having hearings on Bill C-15, we heard some individuals who were advocating for an end to prohibition not only of cannabis but also of stronger chemical substances. The law enforcement individuals we heard from are universally opposed to this. However, there are some advocates—libertarians and I suppose even criminologists—who believe prohibition has been a failed policy.

From your experience as the head of the Ottawa police force, I was wondering if you could comment. Specifically, the one argument that was put forward was that the end of prohibition would somehow reduce organized crime's ability to profit from the drug trade. When I read through your activity report, I see criminal enterprise and organized crime is a very diversified business, with identity theft, auto theft, cigarette smuggling, and the list goes on and on. As a former front-line officer and now as the chief of police, could you provide me with your comments on the issue of legalization?

[Chief Vernon White]

Thank you very much.

First, I will talk about some of the issues we had here. I'll be honest, I sent some of my officers from this city to East Hastings Street to actually see what happens when drugs become almost legalized. From my perspective, I don't think that's a success story, with all due respect to Vancouver. I can also tell you, from talking to the police officers on the street in Vancouver--I was there last year and went to some of the locations with them--they would tell you the same thing, that what they're seeing there, for them, is not a success story.

The second piece to this, I think, is that unless we're thinking about the Government of Canada getting into trafficking or sales of crack cocaine or cocaine or heroin, I don't understand for one second how legalization is going to assist any of us. Legalization will only allow criminal organizations to continue selling at higher levels. It's not going to change what we're doing now.

From my perspective, not as a health professional but as a police chief and a police officer, I can tell you there's nothing I've seen on East Hastings Street or in Vancouver that I consider a success story at this time.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You commented that the crack addict who's living under the Wellington Street bridge is not the focus of your police force, and I appreciate that. I think common sense dictates that. But one of the other hypotheticals that's been brought to this committee's attention with respect to Bill C-15 is the very small grower, the person who might grow three plants. Given that the definition of trafficking is not exclusive to those who sell--sharing can be trafficking--can you tell me what role police discretion plays, in your view, with respect to an individual who grows a couple or three to four plants and shares it with his buddies on a Saturday night?

[Chief Vernon White]

From my perspective, it plays a very high role. Even in the last 15 months during which we have attacked the street-level crack-cocaine dealing, particularly in certain parts of the city, we have still pushed as many people as we can, from a capacity perspective, into drug treatment court. Regardless of whether we agree it's successful or not, there are some success stories from drug treatment court, and certainly any time the word “treatment” is used, I think there's at least potential for success.

So from our perspective, we are using discretion. In those cases where we believe they're trafficking regularly or trafficking at high end or focusing on that vulnerable sector of addict or mental health individual on the streets--and a lot of them are both--then we are trying to push them into the court system mainstream, but at the same time we are utilizing the other opportunities we have.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll move now to Mr. Murphy. You have five minutes.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you.

Mr. Sterling once, you talked about how the war on drugs didn't work, how mandatory minimums didn't work. In the last round we explored that a little bit, about how maybe they were a little too high and so on, but then you talked about the purity of drugs in question having gone up, prices have gone down, and on a market scale I guess it hasn't worked.

Have there been any successes in terms of the profits to organized crime, the flourishing of organized crime, and the sense of public safety since 1986? Are there any positive aspects at all? I ask this because Canadians are stuck, I think, with a stereotype that Mayor Giuliani got tough on crime in New York City and now New York City is safe. For a while we believed that W guy was being tough on crime and all that. The proof of the pudding is coming to be borne out now. Were there any positives from the mandatory minimum regime and the so-called war on crime?

[Eric Sterling]

Mr. Murphy, it's a very good question. It would be difficult over 22 years to say that the only factor that has affected crime in America was the mandatory minimum sentences in the federal regime.

There are 14 million arrests by police officers in the United States nationwide each year. There are only 25,000 federal drug cases in a year. Our economy has changed dramatically and the crime rate has gone down dramatically, but the crime rate went down in many American cities that did not adopt the policies that Mayor Giuliani imposed in New York. The fact that we do have a lot less crime now is certainly a blessing, but I don't think anyone would say it's because of the mandatory minimum sentences that exist in the federal system.

The reality is that the drugs, which are the target of those mandatory minimums, remain widely available, cheaper than ever, addiction is widespread, drug treatment facilities have very long waiting lists, and there is still a large amount of crime associated with the tragedy of drug abuse in the United States.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

What tools work better than others with respect to organized crime? You might not take this the right way, and I'm sorry, but In this country our cities are starting to look like your cities have looked for a long time. They are crime-ridden in some areas, and we don't like that. We're the true north strong and peaceful, and we're not really equipped for it. What things have been successful in the fight against organized crime as it relates to drugs?