I would first like to make a general comment. I would very much like it if we could take the time to reread and think about the briefs all three of you submitted, which have a lot of information, before writing our report. So would you be so kind as to leave a copy with the clerk so that we can really reread them? There is a lot of information.
Second, I would very much like it if Mr. Bartlett would submit the documents he referred to for the forum, when the prosecutors met.
I will never in my life forget the moment when we started to debate the anti-gang legislation. I had met with Allan Rock, then the Minister of Justice. The senior officials in that department were opposed to anti-gang legislation. They said we could win the battle by using the conspiracy provisions.
Pierre Sangollo of the CMPS was the one who made me see clearly why we had to make new rules in the law. I agree with all of the questions that Mr. Bartlett raised. It would be dangerous, at this point, to stop at this. The issue has to be taken further than this.
I have often argued for there to be a list like that, based on three criteria. First, there has to have been a judicial finding. A minister who gets up one morning and doesn't like some particular group because he says it is a criminal organization could not make an order in council. There has to be an order in council. Parliamentarians have to study the list and it has to be reviewed regularly. However, I will not get bogged down in technocratic arguments.
Second, there are some things I would like to understand, and that is why we have to look at your briefs again. The objective here is very simple: we want to avoid having to prove that the organizations that have been found by a court to be criminal are criminal, all over again. In the case of individuals that is understandable. But a list of criminal organizations could never include 900 organizations. Randall Richmond, you will recall, Mr. Chair, told us that there were three criminal organizations in Canada: the Hells Angels, the Rock Machine and the Bandidos. So we are not talking about 900 groups; we are talking about three groups.
Mr. Mainville, you said that for each trial, for each investigation that involves millions of dollars, the profile of each of the criminals has to be prepared over again. You also talked about two roads: the substantive road and the money road. I would like you to explain that for us.
I would also like you to talk about the list of 40 criteria you drew on, and maybe even that you submit it. The people in our research service told us about a list that was given by the court in R. v. Carrier. We saw about nine factors, but you are talking about 40. I would like to understand that better.
I will then come back to Mr. Latulippe.