Evidence of meeting #3 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was attorney.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
In that particular case or that incident or that decision, you don't know?
Acting Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada, As an Individual
I just don't recall. I'm sorry.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay. Section 14 of the act allows the minister or the Attorney General to step in, either in first instance or on appeal. Since the office has been established, has any Attorney General done that?
Acting Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada, As an Individual
That section is awkwardly worded. What it refers to is that the Attorney General may intervene in cases at first instance or in appeal, as you point out.
There are two types of cases that could fall within the scope of section 14. There are cases we conduct the prosecution of. It would be very unlikely that the Attorney General would intervene in a case that we're conducting the prosecution of--and that hasn't happened. And there are cases in which the provincial attorneys general are the prosecutors, and there's a section of the Criminal Code that's been challenged as being contrary to the charter, or there is an investigative technique that is an issue, for example protection of informant privilege. In those cases a decision has to be taken: should we intervene, as the DPP or the Attorney General, to in effect put our point of view before the court if we have something useful to add to the debate?
In those cases there's a tacit understanding we have reached with the Attorney General and the Department of Justice. In cases involving provincial prosecutions in which the constitutionality of the Criminal Code is at issue, it is the lawyers from the Department of Justice who typically will defend or will intervene to defend the code.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Could I stop you there? Quite frankly, that's not the route I want to go down. I really want to know if there was a prosecution undertaken by you, at your level, which the Attorney General indicated he was taking over.
Acting Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada, As an Individual
The answer is no.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay. Have you conceived of a situation in which that would occur? Let me put it a different way: were there any cases you had in which you thought the Attorney General might intervene?
Acting Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada, As an Individual
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
In subsection 15(3), there's a provision here of your requirement, if an intervention has occurred, to advise through the Gazette. But subsection 15(3) allows for you as well as the Attorney General to delay that publication. Has it ever occurred that you held back doing that?
Acting Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada, As an Individual
No. That section appears in the larger section dealing with where the Attorney General has assumed conduct of a case from us. That hasn't occurred.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Is there a policy or have you prepared a policy for under what circumstances subsection 15(3) would be applied from your vantage point--not from the Attorney General's but from yours?
Acting Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada, As an Individual
No, we haven't yet. I might add, though, that in that particular case, if it's an ongoing prosecution and if the Attorney General were to assume conduct of the prosecution, it would become public knowledge the day the lawyers go to court and appear on behalf of the Attorney General.
Acting Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada, As an Individual
Because they'll be in court, in a public forum, saying, “I'm here on behalf of the Attorney General”. The counsel for the Director of Public Prosecutions wouldn't be there. There would be a change of counsel.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Again, would that be back to section 7, where the Attorney General would draw on a special prosecutor?
Acting Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada, As an Individual
No. Section 7--
Acting Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada, As an Individual
It's separate. Section 7 allows the director to retain the services of private sector lawyers. It has nothing to do with the Attorney General's role.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
So where does the Attorney General get authority to hire what I guess would have to be outside counsel if it's not coming from your department?
Acting Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada, As an Individual
I guess that's a problem he has to address, but I would assume it's under government contract regulations, which say that the Minister of Justice hires all legal agents on behalf of the crown.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
At the time this legislation went through, I think there was a general sense--I think I'm objective and fair in saying this--in the country that in the case of political corruption the prosecutor would be responsible for that, and there was a concern over the ability of the government of the day to intervene.
Again, let me ask you first whether you've faced this, where there was a concern either about an investigation going on or a prosecution about to commence. Have you faced this, where it involved a government member, meaning a member of Parliament, including up to the cabinet or a senior member of the governing party?
Acting Director of Public Prosecutions, Public Prosecution Service of Canada, As an Individual
I can't comment on any knowledge that we may have derived from investigations. Investigations are conducted by the police. It's their investigation. We can advise the police in an investigation, but it would be improper and inappropriate for me to disclose whether any investigations are ongoing.
Conservative
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Saunders, for coming here today.
This may be going somewhat down the same road as Mr. Comartin, but on a much more general basis. The reason I'm going to ask you this is very simple. To those in Ottawa who are in this bubble here, it may be seem to be pretty simple, but for the average person, when your job was being proposed, etc.--and this relates to some of the questions Mr. Comartin went through--the people who talked to me assumed that we were talking about a special prosecutor and the office of a special prosecutor, much like they have in the U.S. Of course, the job of the public prosecutor in Canada, your job, is not the same thing, at least from my perspective.
My question is more for people who will be watching these proceedings, so that they know exactly what your job is as it relates to their communities, because I think it filters down to federal crown prosecutors. What's your job? How does it differ?
For those good folks who watch parliamentary procedure, how does it differ from the way district attorneys investigate? We all watch CSI and those programs and we see how involved district attorneys are in investigations. Coming from the law enforcement field, I know that the crown is not generally as involved in this country, so could you describe what your job is and how it relates to the average person, the average Canadian, who would be watching this? Could you then describe how it's different from some of the things that happen south of the border, things that we're influenced by and sometimes confused by?
