Justice Committee on Sept. 28th, 2009

[Daniel MacRury]

It's already there, and earlier testimony talked about a different overlap. The CBA's position is clear that where there is overlap there should be more clarification of “attempt” in the section. We are saying we should bring clarity to some of the overlap provisions of the code.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Do you see an existing provision that says an attempt to steal identity information is an offence? Maybe I've missed that, but without the general provision I'm not seeing it.

[Daniel MacRury]

To try to make some clarity, page 3 of our brief indicates that such preparatory acts may already be prosecuted using general attempt or counselling provisions of the code. Given this overlap in the relationship between the proposed new provisions and the existing provisions, it should be clarified to avoid unintentional broadening or breach of the law. So we're saying there is a potential overlap.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Maybe I'm just being dense. I have to tell you that at the moment there is no offence of stealing information--an intangible. There is no attempt for that offence either. Once this bill is passed, it will be an offence to steal identification information, but I can't see any reason why the general provision regarding attempts or counselling should not apply. If you have any further comments that are not available today to help me with that, I would appreciate it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

I think we've heard most of the questions. I'll just close with one of my own.

Most of you probably know that our committee has been undertaking a comprehensive review of organized crime. We're hoping to issue a report either later on this fall or perhaps early in the spring. My question to anyone who can answer is, what proportion of ID theft is actually committed by organized crime or those serving organized crime? Do we have those statistics? Do our RCMP witnesses know?

[Insp Kerry Petryshyn]

I don't have any specific statistics to break it down simply because of the fact that we have such limited data with regard to how many offences are really taking place out there.

As was mentioned earlier on in the meeting, the number from the Canadian Anti-Fraud Call Centre is only a small sliver of what's really taking place out there. But what I can say is that what I'm seeing nationally from our analytical unit, who piece together what might be hundreds of seemingly unconnected complaints into a common group, is that anywhere between 70% and 80% of the complaints we see are connected to some sort of organized crime group.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

That's very significant. That's greater than I thought it would be.

I have a follow-up, and I'm surprised Mr. Comartin didn't ask this question. Mr. Comartin does want to bring a witness to the table dealing with the whole issue of title fraud. Is that something you're encountering more? I know the various provinces have different land title schemes. I know my own province of British Columbia has imposed upon us as lawyers a much greater onus to confirm the identity of our clients. But that's only part of the solution.

I'm wondering, will the legislation that you have before you today assist you in tackling title fraud?

[C/Supt Stephen White]

It will assist us in that we will have a tool if we do identify someone using another person's identification to attempt to advance a title fraud. There will be a provision in here, “possession of that identification”, that we can use at the outset, hopefully before the actual title fraud has been carried out.

As I said earlier, for us the great tool of this piece of legislation moving forward is that it gives us a very precise and tangible tool that law enforcement can use at the front end of a wide spectrum of identity fraud activities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Does anybody else have any questions? If not, I want to thank our witnesses. Your testimony has been very helpful, and we'll certainly take it under advisement and move forward with this legislation.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Just before you adjourn, I'm concerned that the title insurance people weren't here today. I understood from the work my office had been doing with them that they did want to appear. There had been contact with the clerk of this committee. I saw the list this morning and they weren't on, and I don't know what has happened. It may be that they could not make this meeting. I still believe we should give them the opportunity to appear.

So in our scheduling over the next week or two, I would like to see that they come back and that Bill S-4 is on, even if it is for a short period of time, at another meeting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Comartin, I believe you were going to connect with our regular clerk. We will do everything we can to accommodate the witness if that witness wants to appear. I think we can do that.

This meeting stands adjourned to the call of the chair.