Justice Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2009

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Most of the time it's the professional organization that polices itself. In other words, the doctors, lawyers, and chartered accountants actually create those rules, those ethics—I guess that's the exact word we'd need to use here. So it's very difficult for legislators, I think, and it's a minefield for us to go there.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you come to us, we're reaching out to you for the ideas we can incorporate. It's nice for us to shake our finger at all the professions; we need a little bit more.

One of the pieces of evidence or one of the statements.... I believe it was Mr. De Riggi who mentioned the association between the illicit sale of tobacco and organized crime. Was that the CBSA? Somebody mentioned it. I'm sorry; it was Inspector Joyal. I wonder if you could expound on that just a little bit more, because quite frankly, in much of this country and in particular in my constituency, it's beginning to be a significant problem. I don't think the people who are involved in it really understand and realize that they are being used by organized crime and that their sons and daughters will pay the price down the line.

I wonder if you could just flesh that out a little bit more, if you could draw the trail for us, where the beginning of it is, where organized crime fits into the total picture there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

You've got half a minute.

[Insp Sylvain Joyal]

As I indicated, I made reference to a particular project, Project Machine. The members of motorcycle gangs, like the Hells Angels, are now involved in producing, distributing, and exporting tobacco. It demonstrates that they're not only into drugs. Wherever the money is, they will go and make the money. They will hire the people, and they will pay them salaries to produce massive quantities of tobacco that they know will be distributed, evading and not paying all the proper taxes, just about everywhere.

Part of this money also finances other criminal activities. If we look at the marijuana trafficking or producing, it's not only to traffic and produce marijuana. Most of the time, the money they make on this crime, producing marijuana, is also invested in organizing a massive importation of cocaine or other drugs.

It's all really interlinked. As we've all indicated, wherever the money is, they will go there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We have time for one last question. Mr. Woodworth, five minutes.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I thank the witnesses for being here this afternoon.

Like Mr. Ménard, I would like this discussion to continue all day, but I only have four and a half minutes.

I will take another half-minute to comment on Mr. Rathgeber's point, Mr. Chairman, to point out that I think in addition to deterrence it is quite a reasonable proposition that the legislature might distinguish between the gravity of offences by way of minimum sentences for the purpose of instilling confidence in the justice system and for the purpose of recognizing the concerns of victims. I think that those justifications, in addition to deterrence, give the legislature a right to distinguish between the gravity of offences.

However, my questions are for inspectors Joyal and Morin. I note the concerns that both of you have presented regarding front men or facilitators. I'm not sure if I got the expression right, les hommes de paille.

You may recall that Bill S-4, which is currently before Parliament, addresses certain items regarding false identification--that is, obtaining and possessing identity information with the intent to use it deceptively, dishonestly, or fraudulently; unlawfully possessing or trafficking in government-issued identity documents; and forgery offences in relation to those things.

I have two questions. First, will those provisions regarding false identity begin to make a little dent in this question of facilitators or front men? Second, apart from facilitation by way of false identities, can you suggest any provisions that might legislatively assist you in dealing with real people or people with real identities who are laundering or otherwise facilitating organized crime?

Perhaps I'll start with Inspector Morin and then ask Inspector Joyal to comment.

[Francis Brabant]

Certainly we did welcome Bill S-4, concerning identity theft. I don't think we were alone. I think the Privacy Commissioner....

Again, yes, there's this problem with false identities, but facilitators are normally persons who have true identities.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

What can we do about that?

[Francis Brabant]

It's difficult. As we said before, we were thinking more in terms of sentence, and we welcome also Mr. Battista's idea about providing everybody with more means to achieve our goals.

[Insp Martine Fontaine]

Can I add something?

Nominees are a major problem because they use their real identity to be able to put assets under their names. I like the solution that Mr. Ménard brought forward earlier. Maybe change the burden of the person to be able to come to court and justify how he acquired his assets. He suggested that, and it's quite interesting, as a matter of fact. The nominees are good people. They're fathers, or like I said, mothers. They're real people. They're not necessarily bad people. They don't have criminal records. But if they have to come and justify how they did acquire that property, maybe that would be a solution. I didn't bring that forward. Mr. Ménard brought it forward, but it's interesting.

Or maybe change the “we have the burden to prove beyond reasonable doubt”--

[Insp Sylvain Joyal]

Reverse the onus.

[Insp Martine Fontaine]

Yes, that the onus is on the person, so maybe by prépondérance de preuve, maybe to change that burden, not necessarily give the criminal the highest burden at all, because it's known. I've been doing proceeds since 1992, and it's getting worse and worse. They don't own anything any more. It's a rental company. There's nothing under their name, or just about, and if there's something under their name, it's mortgaged to the top.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Joyal, you can answer if you want.

[Insp. Martine Fontaine]

I'm the proceeds person.

[Insp Sylvain Joyal]

I'm the civil guy; she's the proceeds person.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Well, thank you so much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you to all of you.

This has been a full day for us. It has in some respects given us a different perspective. It's a perspective from Quebec, and you've had your own unique challenges here, so we're going to take that all back and we'll likely prepare a report, probably not until the early spring, but eventually I'm sure you'll get a copy of it for your own perusal as well.

Again, thank you so much for coming.

We stand adjourned.