Evidence of meeting #6 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bac.
A recording is available from Parliament.
General Counsel, Alcohol Countermeasure Systems Corp.
My guess is it would be about 50-50.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay.
Professor Solomon, we heard from the safety council. Actually, I think I may have gotten this after the meeting broke up, but a member of the safety council indicated to me last week that there were only four countries in the world that had lowered the BAC to 0.05 under their criminal sanctions, and that in the rest of the countries that had done it, it was administrative. Do you agree with that?
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay. Can you give us a sense of how many countries have gone to 0.05 in their criminal--
Legal Director, Mothers Against Drunk Driving
The background study upon which that is based assumed that if there was no jail time for the offence, then it was administrative. Well, that's simply not accurate. It doesn't make it administrative if there's no jail time. That study suggested that the majority of jurisdictions have 0.08, but then they counted all 50 states individually.
I have a chart here, which in part is based on data provided by the International Center for Alcohol Policies, which is funded by the alcohol industry in the United States. On page 5, as you can see, I think there are 67 countries at below 0.08, and there are 20 countries at 0.08 or higher. The rest of the world has moved on. The rest of the world realizes that lower blood alcohol levels reduce impaired driving deaths or injuries.
The other point I want to make is that we have provincial administrative suspensions at 0.05, and impaired driving deaths are rising. We have one of the world's worst records in impaired driving. So unless we do something significant or substantial, nothing is going to change. Marginal changes aren't going to make a difference. Now I should say I am a big fan of beefing up 0.05 provincial administrative licence suspensions. As a matter of fact, we drafted the original proposal that the CCMTA adopted. So we're not opposed to it. We think it's important, and we want to favour it. But a 0.05 Criminal Code limit would also have a significant impact, and it would provide a consistent approach across the country.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
I don't know if you're dealing directly with the government of the province of Quebec, but is there any hope that they're going to move to an administrative function there in the near future?
Chief Executive Officer, Mothers Against Drunk Driving
I think if Quebec moves on the model, they're not going to move to the required seven days, which is in the model for the first time. I think you'd be lucky to see 24 hours.
Chief Executive Officer, Mothers Against Drunk Driving
That's what was proposed in their latest round of legislation, which didn't get through.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Are you satisfied with the changes that the Province of Ontario has just brought in, or is about to bring in?
Chief Executive Officer, Mothers Against Drunk Driving
No. I'm satisfied with what P.E.I. has enacted. They went with the full model. Prince Edward Island now has seven days on the first suspension, 30 days on the second, and 90 days on the third. They're the only province so far that's actually implemented the full model. As my colleague Professor Solomon said, if you get a really wide-ranging patchwork quilt, I think unless you have those minimum sanctions in there at the provincial level, it's not going to be effective. They need to do it in unison in a timely fashion.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Ms. Robertson, Professor Solomon mentioned the experience in Australia when they went to 0.05. Do you concur with his determination that in fact we didn't see an overload in the courts at that time in Australia? Or have you studied that?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Traffic Injury Research Foundation
They have an effective justice system. They also have the ability to enforce it with the random breath testing.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
You're not suggesting Canada doesn't have an effective justice system?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Traffic Injury Research Foundation
No, I'm saying they have the ability to manage the cases. My concern here is the message we send to the public if we pass the law and we can't enforce it, and in the worst case if we can't handle the cases going through the justice system. I think there's already a strong message with regard to our ability to handle cases, because you see more than 40% of the people going to trial because they know they have a good shot at getting an acquittal.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Has any analysis been done by your association for effectively getting rid of the two-beer defence for most cases, assuming it is going to be successful in surviving the challenge?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Traffic Injury Research Foundation
That will hopefully have an impact in terms of clearing up some of the backlog in the justice system. But I think it's important that we make sure that's going to happen. That “evidence to the contrary” defence, the Carter defence, was one of the things we looked at in the lawyer's survey, and it was a huge impediment for processing cases for sure.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
Thank you.
We'll move on to Mr. Norlock. You have seven minutes as well.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for coming, especially those who came on very short notice. My question will be to Ms. Buczek with regard to the definition of alcohol tolerance in toxicological terms. We know some people tolerate alcohol more than others, or have an ability to. For the layperson, could you define what you mean when you use those terms?
Assistant Section Head, Toxicology, Centre of Forensic Sciences, Toxicology Section, Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, Government of Ontario
Tolerance is defined as the diminished effect of alcohol on a body. What happens is that if a person drinks large amounts of alcohol on a regular basis, their body will adapt to the presence of alcohol. It will have less of an effect in comparison with when they were a naïf with alcohol.
But in terms of impairment, which is the focus of this committee, you cannot get tolerance to all aspects of impairment. Certain very complex functions are required to operate a motor vehicle, and you cannot get tolerance to that. Tolerance is intoxicated practice. You have to experience the event in the presence of alcohol, and you can't get tolerant to responding to complex driving situations, such as driving on a busy road when someone jumps out in front of the car.
You cannot develop tolerance to everything.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you for that.
Would I be out of line to suggest that what you're saying is that a person who has a high tolerance to alcohol, such as a person who may be an alcoholic, can appear to be functioning in everyday life like most people--they've learned how to walk a little bit straighter, they've learned how to cope with effects on such motor skills as writing or speaking--but then, when faced with an abrupt change in circumstance, they can revert to the same thing that you or I would given the same amount of alcohol?
Assistant Section Head, Toxicology, Centre of Forensic Sciences, Toxicology Section, Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, Government of Ontario
That's exactly it. You have to differentiate between the observable signs of intoxication that you describe, such as slurred speech, unsteady gait, and difficulty walking. People tend to get tolerance to that a lot faster. You cannot get tolerance to some of the complex cognitive processes that are required for driving--divided attention, response to complex driving situations, and certain aspects of vision.
You just can't get tolerance to that, even if you are an experienced alcoholic.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Let's take a typical winter's night in Canada when someone is driving home from an event. It's a male, let's say, who weighs approximately 195 pounds and who is around 30 years of age. Let's say his drinking started at around six o'clock in the evening, when he had a light to average meal. He consumed three drinks after the glass of wine he had with his meal.
Could you give me an approximation of what we might observe with his driving at around 10:30 that night?
Assistant Section Head, Toxicology, Centre of Forensic Sciences, Toxicology Section, Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, Government of Ontario
Sir, I think I would have to do some calculations to respond to your question.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Well, for the purposes of the committee.... This is not like a trial. We're not asking you for something exact.
Just in your experience, off the top of your head, what would you expect to see in this person's driving ability if he'd had four drinks during that time? Give me a rough BAC just so that the average person at home can make a determination. I think I've just recited to you a typical evening for people, a typical event. For instance, this weekend I went to an awards event.
I think we need to differentiate between somebody who's drunk behind the wheel and somebody who has a diminished ability to drive. The average person listening to these proceedings, or hearing about them, or reading them, would be given the ability to judge for themselves whether the committee is going down the right path and what our deliberations might result in.