Justice Committee on March 9th, 2009

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. LeBlanc, I never get ahead of myself, or I never advance a file until we are prepared to move on that. I can tell you, if you have a look at the Conservative Party's policy in previous elections and our justice thing there, we specifically raise those matters.

As far as what I'm wanting to do today and what I have before Parliament is concerned, I want these bills passed. I refuse to get into the situation that we had in the last Parliament where we had five bills and then nothing got passed. I will not go down that route. I appreciate the input of the attorneys general and the public safety and solicitors general and justice ministers right across this country, and I listen very carefully to what they have to say. I can assure you that they are supportive of what we are trying to do in these two bills. But I'm taking them one step at a time. I will not slip into what happened in the previous Parliament. You don't want that, either, Mr. LeBlanc. I'm hoping that you're supporting what we are trying to do in the criminal justice area and you will understand that.

Get these bills passed and I'll make you this promise: you'll see more justice legislation, just as you saw in the previous Parliament.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I hope that's the case, Minister.

I have another brief question. With respect to judicial appointments, I'm familiar with the number in New Brunswick. I've asked you about this previously. The last three appointments you made to the Court of Queen's Bench in New Brunswick were unilingual males.

I see an increasing tendency, Minister, to replace bilingual judges in provinces like New Brunswick with judges who are unilingual. Are you sensitive to this, and do you think you could improve in fact the linguistic makeup of a court?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm sure you couldn't have done very much of a study. I'd certainly love to see that study, Mr. LeBlanc. I watch this very carefully, and my office is in consultation with the chief justices in each of the provinces. We are very sensitive to that. I believe we have an outstanding record of appointing individuals who have dual linguistic abilities and of making sure that gender balance is represented within our court system. I have to tell you while I'm here how pleased I am at the most recent appointment of Mr. Justice Cromwell, who, as you know, has a facility in both languages, but quite apart from that is an outstanding jurist who has a wonderful record. And I can tell you how well that appointment has been received.

We're sensitive to all these issues. I can tell you, you can check out the 222 appointments that were made by this government; these are an outstanding group of Canadians about whom we can all be very proud.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll go to Mr. Lee, for a one-minute question only.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Minister, you will probably agree there are many components of the criminal justice system: there is the Criminal Code; there is the crime, when it takes place; the investigation, which is a huge and expensive part of criminal law enforcement; the charging; the prosecution; the conviction; and the sentencing and the corrections components.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

And bills too, certainly.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

These are all different components, and I've been shocked over my several years here in Parliament by the shameless posturing and pretense of politicians. I guess that cuts through most parties, and maybe once in a while it may have included me. But there's shameless posturing. It's as though by creatively rewriting a law, we're going to make a big difference to crime, when the guys that do the crime look at it in a rather binary way: either they get caught or they don't.

So why aren't you and your ministry focusing on the components of the criminal justice system that make a difference: the investigation, the prosecution, the conviction, the sentencing, the corrections, all of these areas where you can put rubber to the road? Simply by rewriting the law for a drive-by shooting.... It's already a crime; the guy knows he's already in trouble if he gets caught.

How do you think you're making a difference there by focusing on rewriting a law?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

A short answer only.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Under our Constitution, Mr. Lee, that is the responsibility given to us under the BNA Act, now known at the Constitution Act, 1867.

With respect to the administration of justice, it's done at the provincial level for the most part. Sometimes they ask me, why don't you tell the crown's attorney, and I tell them in return, hold on, I'm not in the business of telling the crown's attorney what to do, because the crown's attorneys are appointed by the provinces. Policing under the Criminal Code, as you know, is almost exclusively within provincial and municipal law enforcement agencies.

So I'm always very clear, Mr. Lee, that we are one component of what has to be done to fight crime in this country. If you remember, in my opening remarks I specifically thanked police officers and others, even though we're not the ones who run municipal police forces or the OPP in our province of Ontario. We don't run them at the federal level, but I'm very thankful and congratulatory to them for the wonderful job they do. Every time I see them, I always make that point, even though they're not federal employees. The same thing goes for the crown's attorneys as well.

Mr. Lee, you said you've only been here a couple of years. It's been a little bit longer than that, and you're not one for posturing. You want to see results. I want to see results as well. So we will make changes to the Criminal Code that will send out the right message and deal with the challenges we have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Ménard, a second question, for five minutes.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you.

If I may, sir, I would like to come back to the representations that were made to me about the threat weighing on the professional integrity of the lawyers who work for the CCRG. I would like some reassurances from you and I want to hear more from you about the role of your special advisor, Judge Bernard Grenier, a person that I hold in high esteem and who has long served on the Quebec Court. I was told that your special advisor must review all applications that have been denied a review by the CCRG and that unfortunately, there have apparently been some serious oversights in this area.

Have you been made aware of these oversights? Although I may look calm on the outside, when matters like this are brought to my attention, I am troubled. I'm sure you want to put my mind at ease. Can you reassure me about the review role played by Judge Grenier and about how he is carrying out his duties? I'm familiar with his record on the Quebec bench, but I would like you to quash the rumours that are circulating.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I can tell you that my relationship with Judge Grenier is at arm's length. He does his work of looking at applications for wrongful convictions, and I think it has worked very well. This is something we can all be very proud of.

You've made, I think, some allegations with respect to a working group within the Department of Justice, if that's what you're doing. Again, my understanding is that the system has worked well in the past. I'm very pleased with it. I'm unaware that somebody may be disgruntled or unhappy with that, and you've certainly brought it to the attention of the deputy minister, who administers the department on a regular basis.

But Judge Grenier is separate, even from the department. These get referred to him and he has a look at them, and then he makes recommendations to either sustain the conviction or to have the matter referred to the court of appeal, or have a new trial ordered. So I think it has worked very well.

I think we can be proud of the decisions that have been made and the wrongs that have been righted.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I'm sure you wouldn't want to appear unusually naive. I know you to be a shrewd person.

Does Judge Grenier follow through with the four stages involved in reviewing applications for a criminal conviction review?Some attorneys with groups responsible for representing innocent victims seem to think that he is not as committed as he should be to the process. You know that I always take my questions very seriously and I would like some reassurances from you.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I know you are.

I believe Judge Grenier has done an outstanding job. The reports that he has given to me have led me to have every confidence in the work he has done. I'm completely satisfied with the work he has done. As I say, if you have some other information to the contrary, please let us know. I have been very pleased, and I think he works very well. But again, my relationship with him is at arm's length. I'm not in the business of cross-examining him, or interacting with him other than to get the reports to me, and with their recommendations.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Chair, the committee is responsible for the integrity of the process. Therefore, I intend to move a motion to invite Mr. Scullion and all of the other officials responsible for the CCRG to appear before our committee.

Minister, are you quite convinced that all groups who work with individuals who may have been the victims of a judicial error receive all of the evidentiary elements and all of the pertinent information? For several years now, some groups have been complaining about how hard it is to get this information. If the committee is amenable to this, these officials will come and testify, but I simply want to be sure that the matter has been brought to your attention and that you will take steps to rectify this distressing, and appalling situation.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You combined a couple of things there, Monsieur Ménard.

I believe the system has worked well and it continues to work well. I don't have any evidence to the contrary, that it's not working well, quite frankly. If you have evidence that somehow it's not, then by all means forward it on to us. But again, I think it has worked very well, and it has resulted in justice for a number of people who might not otherwise have experienced justice. I think we can all be very proud of the system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Norlock, you have five minutes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Minister and officials, for coming here today.

If you permit me, Mr. Minister, I would like to also say it's good to see Mr. Lee back again and to share a committee together with him. I would like to just mention for his sake that I'm also on the public safety committee, and I can tell him that, yes, there are many components to the issues we're dealing with here at the justice and public safety committee. I'm also very happy that I can say for his sake, or to him, and to those folks who are watching and listening to some of the comments he made, that this government's been spending a lot of their tax dollars on improving the investigative arm of things by investing heavily in the RCMP and other police forces, as well as making sure that there's an independence with the prosecutorial part by the appointment of Mr. Saunders, of course.

I would like, Mr. Minister, to talk about Bill C-14. In particular, what struck me was the amount of media coverage around that particular bill, and the kind of support that I know comes from the law enforcement community, with which I have a kinship. I think folks should realize that when police departments, police officers, and police associations talk to you, or you consult with them, behind that consultative process you have also community policing committees that they represent and who advise them, and also the victims of crime. I would like to ask you some questions surrounding the amount of consultation you've taken with various communities, not the least of which would be police officers, the people on the front lines who deal with these issues on a daily basis, and what kind of input they had to Bill C-14.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Norlock, and thank you for your support of these initiatives and your input on the public safety committee as well.

We never make these laws in a vacuum. That would be the wrong way to do it. We do get input.

You talked about a number of groups that are very, very important. Of course, victims of crime have to be at the top of anybody's list. I was pleased and proud to appoint the first federal ombudsman for victims of crime about two years ago. For the first time, we have an individual whose sole function is to stand up and have a look at the issues that surround and challenge victims in our criminal justice system.

These are all steps in the right direction. Having more money for the victims fund is another example to build on that initiative.

That being said, I've been the recipient of many, many inputs, inputs from people like you, from parliamentarians, from our constituents, and from speaking with law enforcement agencies and lawyers' groups. One of the great things about being Minister of Justice is that you do get invited to a whole host of functions where people who are dedicated to making a difference in this area gather, and you get the benefit of their advice and their input on these laws.

But this question of gangs is not something that just arose in the last three weeks. Again, I appreciate that Parliament will be focused on this. I'd appreciate any efforts to get these bills through, but part of what we are doing is just bringing the Criminal Code up to date.

The provisions with respect to police officers haven't been updated in many, many decades. We have to send out the message that if you start attacking police officers, the people who are in the business of protecting society, there have to be serious consequences, and that we are increasing those consequences.

Also, if you are in the business of pulling out a gun and shooting into a crowd, you should know that prison time awaits you.

These are steps in the right direction and they send out the right message.

Again, when I speak with groups and individuals, ordinary Canadians everywhere I go in Canada are not shy about telling me how concerned they are about some of the issues with respect to violent crime in this country. I can tell you--and I have said this in the House of Commons and I say it here--that your constituents will thank you if you help get these things through.

Our job and the job of all the members of Parliament is to keep the focus on these issues. I appreciate that we have other challenges in this country, and huge challenges with the economy, but this is part of what we have to do as parliamentarians. Believe me: the people of this country will thank us for that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Minister, thank you. We're at the end of our first hour.

Thank you to all three of you, Mr. Sims, Mr. Saunders, and Minister, for appearing before us. I think you've sensed from the comments you've heard at this committee table that there may be a greater degree of collaboration we can look forward to in terms of moving forward with protecting our communities, so I'm sure we'll have you back again.

Again, thanks for appearing before us.

We'll suspend for a few minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Members, on your desks you have a number of suggested motions on the supplementary estimates C. If you're willing to accept them, we'll walk through each of those votes and then do a report to the House.

Do we have a motion on the first item?

Mr. LeBlanc.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I don't know whether it's appropriate, but I move that all of these individual votes carry and you report the supplementary estimates as a group.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

That's appropriate.

Is there any debate on these? No.

Following this we will deal with Monsieur Ménard's motion, which is still on the table.

We have a motion before us to cover all of the supplementary estimates C together with a report to the House.

(Motion agreed to on division)

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

The other item is the motion that Mr. Ménard tabled.

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Could we please show the last vote as being on division?