Justice Committee on March 11th, 2009

[W.H. (Bud) Garrick]

There are a number of initiatives already going forward that speak to that.

The issues you raised are very valid ones. The technology has changed. We're seeing more use of the BlackBerrys, PDAs, cell phones; there are issues such as that. The current intercept laws and regulations are extremely cumbersome and time-consuming, and we often need to intercept in a timely fashion.

As you're speaking of technology in general, one of the issues we're trying to deal with at the national level is to ensure that all the police departments and law enforcement agencies across Canada are operating with the same technology, so that we can communicate better, and particularly so that we can share information. Although we have the current national database, it is getting old, so we currently look forward to making progress on getting a new one, which will help in that area for sure.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Go ahead, Mr. Dixon.

[Donald R. Dixon]

To continue with what William is indicating and to go back to where he started, concerning the Canadian criminal intelligence model we introduced a few moments ago, we embarked on this venture about two years ago. We were designing a Canadian criminal intelligence model with the intent of attaching it to the accountability framework of the police chiefs across this country. It is something we've been working on. We've done extensive surveys and have had extensive meetings with senior police executives of their criminal intelligence divisions or branches.

The aim of this model is to ensure consistency and coherence in our approach to criminal intelligence and to combatting organized crime across the country. It is to bring a sense of unity and synergy to the 400 law enforcement agencies that we have across the country.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

But I'm interested in understanding whether you or colleagues with whom you work across the country have a view on what legislative changes we could make that would deal with what Mr. Garrick mentioned. He talked about things being cumbersome or time-consuming. Is this because you need more resources to prepare the application for the search warrant, or is it because you have inadequate laws to give police forces access to data that servers or cell phone providers may have, or is it simply because you can't find a judge who is available to sign the warrant? Or do you want a sort of revolving warrant?

What are you suggesting around the process to expedite that?

[W.H. (Bud) Garrick]

You hit the two key areas at the beginning, which are legislative changes to bring the process more in line with new technologies and the resources to keep up with them. Particularly when I talk about resources, I mean not just boots on the ground but also the technology to keep pace with the technology that organized crime uses. They have the money available to purchase as they see fit. We are often tied into budgetary issues and can't keep pace with what they're doing.

So it is exactly the two main areas that you spoke about at the beginning.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Could you give me an example of what they have in terms of technology that you guys can't keep pace with? What kind of things is it?

[W.H. (Bud) Garrick]

I don't think I can pinpoint a specific issue, but to give you a sense of it, some of the new tools they use, whether it be a new type of cell phone or a satellite phone or a new type of BlackBerry, are tools we may not have the ability to intercept in all areas across Canada.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

So it's the technological ability.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We will move on to Mr. Lemay. You have five minutes.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you for being here today.

I must say I'm somewhat surprised. There is one issue I'm quite interested in. In organized crime, we have to be able to follow the money. With organized crime, it is always about the money. Clearly, all these activities have one objective: making money.

As far as following cell phones goes, I was a criminal lawyer for 30 years, and I can tell you that my clients knew how you could intercept them. If you are still at that stage today, you've got some problems.

In the study we are beginning, I am interested in finding out whether you have ways of following the money. More specifically, the issue is finding out how organized crime launders billions of dollars, because we are no longer talking about millions of dollars, but rather billions of dollars. I would like to know whether we can determine whether people in organized crime have invested in public or private companies with a respectable façade. I am not asking you to tell me all about that today; clearly, that will be done in in camera meetings. I am interested in knowing whether you can follow the money today. I must say that barely 10 years ago, you could not do that. You followed it up to a point, but then you lost it in the Cayman Islands, in Barbados, Liechtenstein, Switzerland or Monaco. Are you able to follow the money now? We will be able to cause these people trouble once we can do that. We have passed legislation to do exactly that.

[Donald R. Dixon]

The answer to that specific question is yes, and I have confidence in your in camera hearings across this country. As well, I'd be more than happy to suggest a couple of bureaus you may want to speak to that would give you an outstanding illustration of success as it pertains to your exact question. However, from a tactical perspective, Bud and I would be the wrong people to give you a direct comment on that. We do know that there are people you could speak to as part of your study, who could reassure you, in fact, not only that it is achievable but also that it is being done today and being followed through to successful prosecution.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Let us talk about organized crime in organizations. Is it true that organized crime is now very well established, even internationally, in companies that have public respectability? Is it true that it has infiltrated many major multinational companies and is laundering its money in this way? Could we get some information on this?

[W.H. (Bud) Garrick]

Again, I can't talk specifics in this area. There are certainly people we could point you towards who could talk specifics. Interestingly enough, one of the areas that we are very much looking at right now is exactly the area of financial crime and talking about--

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'm sure you know where I'm going with this. I'm interested in knowing whether you have international relations at the moment with INTERPOL, the CIA and the DEA. Are these relations strong enough at the moment, throughout the world, so that you receive information instantly?

[Donald R. Dixon]

I wouldn't say instantly, but clearly we have partnerships that go beyond the borders of Canada, certainly with the United States and Interpol, to which you referred, and with other like organizations with which we exchange information. We also travel back and forth and keep each other abreast of trends, projected trends, and activities of concern in each of those areas.

Our sharing of information is very robust at this point in time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We're going to go to Monsieur Petit. You have five minutes, and unfortunately that will probably be the last question, and I have one follow-up question for our witnesses.

Monsieur Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. I'm going to ask a more general question. I will be reading the report you published last year. The problem I see is as follows: in the Montreal region, for example, for the last year we have noticed that drugs were coming in by ship in our ports. Apparently, at Pierre Elliott Trudeau airport there have been more cases of employees caught allowing drugs into the country.

According to the information provided by the police to the newspapers, Montreal is a hub for drugs. It takes money to buy drugs, not prayers. My questions are somewhat along the same lines as those asked by Mr. Lemay. Do you have ties with the national ports, many of which come under federal responsibility? Do you have dealings with the airports, which are supposed to be monitored? Do you have any ties with other federal officials, such as those in the passport office, who could tell you whether a certain individual went to Columbia 10 times, or to Switzerland or to some other place? Does this type of cooperation exist?

[Donald R. Dixon]

As it pertains to the areas that you are expressing concern about, as it pertains to ports, that is a very active portfolio at the national level in our offices here in Ottawa and a very active one within the provincial bureaus that have ports at which they are aggressively pursuing all serious crime and organized crime in each of those areas.

Some of the other aspects of your question are very tactical in nature, and I would not be able to comment upon those. But as it pertains to the criminality and the drug activity that you are talking about in the province of Quebec and specifically in Montreal, I am very well aware of an aggressive campaign by the senior law enforcement executives, including the chiefs and the directors general in that province.

[W.H. (Bud) Garrick]

If I could follow up on that, as I may have mentioned earlier, one of our partners, certainly at the national level, and within provincial areas is the Canada Border Services Agency. We deal extensively with them, and they are there exactly for the reasons you just spoke about.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

My second question is for Mr. Dixon or Mr. Garrick.

There have been clashes between organized crime groups in the streets of Montreal for some time. There have even been some murders. Like me, you have probably read about some of these things in the newspapers. Mr. Ménard asked you a question earlier. A young man in his riding died when a bomb exploded in a jeep that the Hells Angels had placed nearby. He will never be able to do anything about this—he died in the explosion.

Do you have a type of electronic classification system that can detect places where people have been seen before? As Mr. LeBlanc was saying, do you have all the technical and electronic tools you need, or is it the [Editor's Note: Inaudible] that is beyond you?

[Donald R. Dixon]

The national database that I spoke about, which is used by many of our partners, is probably used most prolifically in the province of Quebec. All information pertaining to criminality in the province of Quebec is put into that system each and every day, and it is slavishly followed, including by the intelligence officers and analytical folk who look at that database each and every day to answer the very questions you are asking us today. It is well entrenched in the province of Quebec.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Gentlemen, I think our time has run out.

Before we dismiss you, I'd like to close with one question.

I'm advised that not only are the challenges we face in trying to address organized crime legislative ones, and judicial ones, and law enforcement ones, but also organized crime is a criminal enterprise that stretches well into the prison system. The suggestion is that you have to cut off the head right in the prison system to make any progress in fighting organized crime.

Do you agree with that characterization, and if so, what can you suggest can be done in a very short period of time? What would you suggest we do in terms of our study overall, as well as specifically, to address some of the problems that are occurring within our prison system?

[W.H. (Bud) Garrick]

I would suggest you are correct at some level of your assumption. Certainly, there is still a significant amount of leadership within the prison system and the organized crime region. Again, that is why one of our key partners, which has been on board and is coming on board in a more fulsome manner, is the Correctional Service of Canada, so that we can have the correct amount of intelligence to pinpoint the law enforcement agencies towards the members who are still engaged in that. Certainly CSC, the Correctional Service of Canada, is very aggressive in their intelligence gathering in that area.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Gentlemen, thank you for your testimony. Could you make sure we get the contact information for the various bureaus across Canada, so that we can perhaps get them in as witnesses as we travel across the country? Thank you.

We'll take a three-minute recess, as we bring in the next set of witnesses.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll reconvene the meeting.

We're pleased to have with us now, for our organized crime study, three witnesses from British Columbia. We have Steve Brown, Lois Schellenberg, and Eileen Mohan. Welcome here.

We're looking forward to hearing you speak to us. As you know, each of you has 10 minutes to present. I'm not sure if you're going to use up all of that time, but please feel free to begin.

Mr. Brown, I believe you're going to start.

Perhaps before Mr. Brown starts, I should mention that Mrs. Schellenberg is actually from my riding of Abbotsford, and Mr. Brown is actually from Mr. Warawa's riding in British Columbia.

I believe, Ms. Mohan, you are from either Mr. Dhaliwal's riding or very close by, from the city of Surrey. Correct?