Justice Committee on June 10th, 2010

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

So there is a report, but you haven't seen it.

[Bernard Richard]

To my knowledge, there is a report, but I haven't seen it.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Did anyone else here attend those consultations conducted by the minister?

[Kathy Vandergrift]

I did not personally, but members of our coalition did, and that's one of the reasons they wanted us to be here today. Some of them participated in Toronto, some in B.C., and they too felt that there was a range of views in those meetings but they did not think that the predominance of what they heard in the meetings they were in went in the direction of this bill. So they also wanted us to table what we said here, which is that it would be important for you to see that.

And I would highlight as well that the developments in the field of international youth justice are based on evidence gathering. There was a conference in Brazil not very long ago looking at the very best of what's happening around the world. Justice Canada was there, and some of our members were there. There are best practices being developed elsewhere that we should be looking at and modelling so that we base it on good evidence.

We don't see that coming forward in this bill, neither the international evidence nor the evidence that came from across the country. And I can tell you that in the sessions our members were in, the focus on early preventive help was the strongest need that was there, and more services that provide the range of what young people need was the highest thing they heard.

[Miguel LeBlanc]

Our organization itself did not attend specifically, but I do know that some social workers who are our members did. However, I have to say I'm very concerned to hear that there is actually a report that is supposedly published, and the committee here, which is tasked with defining and developing new changes to amend the legislation on the Youth Criminal Justice Act, doesn't even have a copy of that.

I think it's important to say that in the front lines, among the majority, there seems to be an understanding among health professionals that just putting youth in jail and turning the key and not providing the services in front will actually be unproductive, because in the long run, when they go back into the community after they have served their sentence, if they don't have the proper services at the front end the likelihood is they may reoffend. The mental health courts' success rate, which is 85% in the sense of youth not reoffending, I think is a superb statistic that hopefully the committee will further examine closely.

Thank you.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Ms. Toutant, we were told that the minister went to consult in Quebec. He chose the significant date of June 26.

[Cécile Toutant]

The one that's coming up?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

No, not the one that's coming up, but the one that's passed. He conducted his consultations on June 26. I imagine he likes festivals, as there are a lot of them at that time in Quebec.

Whatever the case may be, did you attend those consultations?

[Cécile Toutant]

No, I personally didn't attend them. I wouldn't dare say that we weren't invited. I must tell you that, in the Quebec system, the first ones called upon with regard to youth justice are, above all, the youth centres. I believe you've heard some youth centre representatives here. Perhaps they went. The Institut Philippe-Pinel has a department for young persons, but, as we're in a hospital, we're somewhat on a sidetrack at times as regards invitations.

I blame no one because I believe that, even though I didn't hear about it, I know perfectly well what the youth centres and other agencies in Quebec think about the act and what message they delivered.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Perhaps your colleagues from the other provinces should be informed on this point. The Institut Philippe-Pinel isn't an institute that focuses on young offenders. It devotes itself to anyone who has committed crimes because they suffer from mental illness. As you say, it's first of all a hospital, and as a hospital that is concerned with this type of behaviour, you also take in young people who very much need medical care.

[Cécile Toutant]

I would like to clarify one point. It is a secure psychiatric hospital. We take in young persons who have committed violent crimes and who have psychological or psychiatric disorders. We don't just take in youths who are suffering from schizophrenia, for example, but also a lot of young people who have control disorders, intermittent explosive disorders. In that sense, youths are not always admitted there because they have mental disorders set out in the DSM or reported through psychiatric diagnoses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Mr. Comartin for seven minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here.

Mr. Richard, let me start with you. You're saying this bill is premature. Have you done any type of an assessment of how long we would want the law to be in place before we looked at making changes so we would know what the consequences are?

[Bernard Richard]

My opinion would be a minimum of ten years, followed by consultations, analysis of statistics to see what kinds of outcomes we see from the application of this bill.

I would also argue that many parts of the Youth Criminal Justice Act are really not being used effectively across the country. I know for a fact that conferencing is used very unevenly across the country, so the use of conferencing, bringing people from different disciplines and departments together to assess, for instance, youth who have mental health or serious behaviour disorders, would allow completely different outcomes. They would be tracked in completely different ways, offered services and treatments, and the results in those experiments that exist, both here in Ottawa and in Saint John, New Brunswick, certainly are quite compelling.

My concern is that we will end up spending so much money in a more formal, punitive reaction to youth crime that we will lack the resources to provide these kinds of alternate remedies, extrajudicial remedies, as they're called in the legislation.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay, let me come back to that final point in a minute.

I just want to go back, Ms. Vandergrift, to the point you made about the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the analysis that should have been done. Do you know if, in the sessions that were done in your region--and Mr. Richard, in yours, the session you had in Moncton--did anybody make any presentations on that so the justice department could take it into account? Are you aware, in those public meetings?

[Bernard Richard]

Certainly I would have. We work on the basis of the convention. Canada has ratified the convention.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

But did you raise it in that session?

[Bernard Richard]

Yes, yes, absolutely.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay.

Ms. Vandergrift, do you know in Ontario?

[Kathy Vandergrift]

I'm not sure our members work on behalf of the convention, but what I'm flagging here is that when we raised the concern about how the convention is implemented in Canada, we were told an analysis is done before bills go to cabinet. You should ask to see that.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, to follow up on that, can I ask you to communicate to the department or to the minister's office that if an analysis was done, the committee should get a copy of it, and if one was not done, why not?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll have the clerk do that. We do need some clarification, because there is a suggestion there were consultations. There is a suggestion that there was facilitation by Monsieur Bilodeau. There is a suggestion that there may have been a written report, and then I believe Monsieur LeBlanc believes that a report was published. I don't believe it has been published. We need to get clarification on that, I agree, Mr. Comartin, so we'll get back to you on that.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I just wanted to be clear. There are two parts to this. There's the type of thing that either Monsieur Bilodeau or somebody from that group published, but there should be a separate analysis just from the perspective of how we're implementing our responsibilities under the convention on children's rights.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll find out if that analysis has been done and if it's been published.

Carry on, Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Ms. Vandergrift wants a copy of it if we get it.