Justice Committee on June 10th, 2010

[Kathy Vandergrift]

I don't have it in front of me, but I did read it.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

All right.

I'm just going to ask you to do a little homework with your lawyers, because in your written statement, for example, there is a sentence that suggests that Bill C-4 is adding denunciation and deterrence and giving them priority over rehabilitation and best interests of the child.

I have in front of me the provision of Bill C-4 that adds denunciation and deterrence. That's clause 7 of Bill C-4, and it adds those things to section 38. In fact, it adds them to five other principles and it doesn't give them priority. In fact, it specifically says they will be subject to one of those other five principles.

So I would like you to go back to the people who wrote this brief and ask them to refer this committee specifically to the provision in Bill C-4 and the words in that bill that they say give priority to denunciation and deterrence, because I think if you do that you will find that there is no such thing in Bill C-4.

[Kathy Vandergrift]

With respect, we did not say anything about denunciation and deterrence being given priority. Our statement about denunciation simply says, “No evidence has been presented to show that deterrence is an effective strategy”, and we said that adding denunciation does not seem to us to be consistent with the recognition of reduced moral blameworthiness.

We never talked about them being given priority. We never—

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Are you representing the Canadian Coalition for the Rights of Children?

[Kathy Vandergrift]

Yes, and we did not say that denunciation was being given priority.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Let me read to you from page 2 of the brief:

As well as questions of effectiveness, the CCRC asks all MPs to consider that the following principles are contrary to international law and violate their responsibility to protect the rights of young people:

- adding denunciation and deterrence to sentencing principles for children and youth under 18 years of age, and

- giving them priority over rehabilitation and best interests of the child;

Am I out of time already?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Yes, unfortunately you are.

[Kathy Vandergrift]

Well, I would like to connect with you later, because that's not--

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

All right. You can connect afterwards. Hopefully we'll have another round of questions.

Monsieur Lemay, on a point of order.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I'm speaking to Mr. Woodworth.

You referred to a report that committee members should have. We don't have it. I never received it. Could you give the reference to the clerk?

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Yes, Mr. Chair, this was received by way of the Child Welfare League of Canada and it is a report on the national invitational symposium on youth justice renewal.

I received it from the clerk. I regret I didn't keep the cover letter, but it was just a week or two ago, I'm sure, after the Child Welfare League testified.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Madam Clerk, you'll check?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you for that point of order.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

On the same or a different point of order, I think it's a significant point. I was led to believe that you received the report resulting from the round tables across the country that Mr. Richard referred to. That's what I thought as well.

You're making it very clear that you are not in possession of any report from the Department of Justice on the round tables. Correct?

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

What I said was that each one of us received a report on the national invitational symposium on youth justice renewal.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

It sounded like it was government, but to be clear, you got no government report, right?

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

This report was commissioned by the government. The background of it indicates:

The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police (CACP), working in partnership with the Child Welfare League of Canada (CWCL) and on behalf of the Coalition on Community Safety, Health and Well-being, entered into a contribution agreement with Justice Canada on 19 March 2008 to convene the National Invitational Symposium on Youth Justice Renewal.

Thank you.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Is that the report that emanates from the government as a result of its round tables in Moncton, New Brunswick, in August 2008, for example?

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

This is the report of the national invitational symposium on youth justice renewal—

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

It's not the same.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

For clarification, I don't believe it is the same. Certainly I'm not in possession of the report regarding the consultations, and the clerk isn't in possession of any report like that.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

On a point of order—

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

I think we've clarified that.

Mr. Woodworth.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I'm not sure we've clarified it, because I didn't mean to say anything more than what I did say, which is that we all have received a report of that national invitational symposium. It brought people together and came up with good ideas. It's not as if we're working in a vacuum. That's all I meant to say and it's all I did say.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Understood. I think we all understand that.

All right, we're going to move to our next round.

Ms. Mendes, are you taking the next round?