Justice Committee on March 23rd, 2010

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Assuming, again, the bill comes through, is that part of a work plan somewhere down the road, where that analysis will be done, so that if that's going to happen the funding will be available?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Probably one of the reasons we're continuously before you on different supplementary estimates is that we watch these things very carefully and we try to make the budget, of course, fit the needs and requirements of the department. It was pointed out to me, again, that it would be within the budget of the Public Prosecution Service, which has been split off from the Department of Justice.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That would be true of the prosecutors but not if additional judicial officials are needed.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Many of the resources are administered by the provinces. With respect to Corrections and housing of individuals, of course, that's my colleague, the Minister of Public Safety.

With respect to the Public Prosecution Service, there's no formal analysis, as I indicated, but we will forward an estimate as to what might be required in terms of resources, if that's acceptable to you.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I would appreciate that, and obviously the committee might as well. It could go to the clerk.

I have one final point. With regard to judicial appointments--I know you and I have had this exchange in the past over the need for additional appointments--have you had any requests in the past 12 months from any of your provincial counterparts for additional appointments at the Superior Court level?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That's a very good question, Mr. Comartin. If you were to ask a provincial attorney general, I think for the most part they would always welcome new Superior Court judges--I'm not saying they say this in any irresponsible manner. That being said, there certainly is a cost to the provinces with respect to everything else that has to do with the appointments.

I can tell you that they were pleased with respect to the bill that increased the pool. You would have dealt with that bill to increase the number of Superior Court judges at this committee.

I'll give some thought as to whether I've had any formal requests over the last year; I will have a look at that again. I discuss all related issues on a regular basis with provincial attorneys general. I don't want to say no to you and then find out that in April 2009 I did get a letter. We do try to watch these things very carefully, and we try to respond to individual provincial concerns to the extent that we can.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll move on to Mr. Dechert, seven minutes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Minister and Mr. Sims.

I'd like to thank you, Minister, and the government and your department for introducing important amendments to our criminal law. In my view, the safety of our families and our communities is of paramount importance, and I believe it's one of the most important things that we, as members of Parliament, are sent here to protect.

For over a year now--since the last election--I've been regularly surveying the constituents in my riding about their concerns about the youth criminal justice system in this country and their support for the proposed amendments to youth criminal justice that you've put forward recently.

I've also had many conversations with members of the Peel Regional Police force in my region. They have told me, for a number of years now, that they support changes to that system. I wonder if you could tell the committee if the bill has received support from police forces and organizations across Canada.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I've received pretty good feedback already. The Quebec provincial police association representatives have already indicated that they like the direction that we're going.

The response has been pretty good. I mean, it's focused on violent repeat offenders and people who are endangering themselves and the public. This bill is very specific; it's targeted. As was pointed out in the Nunn report, there is a relatively small group of out-of-control, dangerous individuals, whose problems have to be addressed. As you can see from the bill, it's very targeted. It makes the point that the protection of the public has to be a priority with any aspect of the criminal justice system.

It touches on a number of different areas. I mean, even the one requiring the crown to consider adult sentences for the most serious offences... We're talking about murder, manslaughter, attempted murder. Again, we're talking about the most serious offences. We're saying to the court to direct its mind to this, that when it's appropriate, in the opinion of the court, a decision has to be made in this regard.

With respect to detaining individuals who have been charged with serious offences, we want to make it clear that in order to protect the public, and the individual, in some circumstances the detention of that individual will be necessary.

I think it's balanced, but it's specific at the same time. Again, we're targeting a relatively small group of young people who have come into conflict with the law.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you.

Minister, in your opening comments this morning you mentioned the whole problem of marijuana grow ops. Again I can tell you that unfortunately many of these grow ops actually exist today in family neighbourhoods throughout Mississauga. They're bringing crime right to where people live.

The Peel police have told me that there are dozens of grow ops in operation across the city of Mississauga. They're dangerous and expensive for the police to shut down. This is a real problem in neighbourhoods where people have children and families who are put at risk by this criminal element operating in their neighbourhoods. I wonder if you could tell the committee about how the proposed amendments will address this issue.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well, your committee had a look at those provisions within the old Bill C-15, which specifically targets drug dealers and organized crime, people who are into the business of the grow ops for the purposes of trafficking. That's who that bill is targeted at.

You will hear others say that it's after somebody else, that it's after the poor individual who has become addicted or somebody who is experimenting with drugs. That's not what that bill was targeted at. That bill was targeted at drug dealers and it was targeted at organized crime. I've made that statement before.

They said we were going after people bringing drugs into the country. I can tell you what law enforcement agencies have told me: that the people who are in the business of importing drugs into this country are part of organized crime and they are part of the drug gangs. This is who we are dealing with in that particular piece of legislation.

Now, with respect to the grow ops, I hear from law enforcement agencies all the time. It's actually changing. Sometimes they're actually moving out of suburbs. They want to get out into the country where they can go about their business, they believe, with fewer prying eyes on what their activity is all about. But again, I have been told, and I believe it, that what comes out of these grow ops--marijuana--is the currency for bringing other very serious drugs into this country. That's the currency that is used.

So for people who are into the business of trafficking, people in the business of organized crime and people who are part of these drug gangs, we need to send a very clear message to them that they are looking at jail time. That's what they're looking at under that bill. I think it's a very reasonable approach to this, and it's a response to what we're dealing with. This is becoming a more sophisticated business all the time.

As I mentioned in answer to the question from Monsieur Ménard, for identity theft and auto theft, it's a more sophisticated business than it was 15, 20, or 30 years ago, and the laws have to keep up to date on these things. The world is changing and we have to make sure that the laws respond to the challenges.

As part of our efforts to respond to those challenges, we are doing so with that particular bill, so yes, I intend to reintroduce that bill. Even though you will hear critics say that we're after some poor guy with one plant, we're after those individuals who are into the business of trafficking. That's who we're targeting. Again, we will once again introduce that legislation.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Mr. Murphy.

You have five minutes.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister of Justice, for being here.

Mr. Sims, I understand that you're leaving us at the end of March. We certainly have enjoyed your service here.

To go back to cleaning up, I guess, Mr. Minister, on what my colleague asked you about Mr. Iacobucci, I think the public needs to know that he's a wonderful individual with great credentials, but he's been in private practice now for almost six years. He's with a firm called Torys. They generally run a business, so I imagine that he wants to be paid for this. I imagine there's a retainer agreement. Your answer was that he's been hired under section 127.1 of the Public Service Employment Act.

It seems to me that if you read that act, he can be none other than a deputy minister, which he's not, or a “special adviser to a minister”. It's in paragraph 127.1(1)(c). If he's that—and you're nodding, so it must be true—then he is in effect a lawyer “of counsel” acting as an adviser to you. Under the terms of reference, he is to provide you with a summary report—not the Canadian public, but you, Mr. Minister. He is to provide you a summary report before it's made public.

So how is it that he's not a lawyer hired by your department to whom you give instructions and he, being a lawyer, reports to you? How is it different from that, and why are we letting the public feel that this is some sort of commission at arm's length? I think you don't need to be reminded that Justice Gomery wasn't calling the government every day when he was doing his inquiry, and it was certainly at arm's length and it certainly had consequences.

We want the good work of the good man, Mr. Iacobucci, to have meaning, so we want to be sure there's an arm's-length distance there, and frankly, Minister, there isn't. You are the client. He is the lawyer. He reports to you before he reports to the public.

Assuage my fear that his good work will not be closeted by the government if the government—and not you, Mr. Minister, personally—feels it's a little too hot, if a delay would be in order, or if some change in the advice given would be in order. Assuage my concern about that, Mr. Minister.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

He is appointed by me as a special adviser to me, and his role is, by definition, of course, to provide legal advice. He is providing that to me as Attorney General, and I've already indicated that I am prepared to accept the advice of Justice Iacobucci.

I am sure you and your colleagues wish him well in all his work. With respect to the scope of it, his mandate includes all relevant documents, and it goes back to the beginning of our involvement in Afghanistan. I hope that's of some help.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Confirm, then, that it's a regular solicitor-client relationship, and that the usual privileges apply, because you didn't have time, perhaps, to answer that directly to Mr. Dosanjh.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

He's governed by section 127 of the Public Service Employment Act, but it's legal advice that he is providing, and he is providing that to me, as Attorney General, under the terms that you have seen already.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you.

I know something that you feel strongly about, and that we all feel strongly about, are victims' rights. There's a case in my riding, and there are cases across the country, in which victims have to follow the tragedy through parole hearings, etc. There is a victims fund administered by your department, and I know you would want to know that they don't give full indemnification to people attending parole hearings. They don't advance enough money for some of them to attend.

Is there something you could do to help, along with Mr. Sullivan, who's doing capable work as the victims' rights ombudsman, to move the victims fund administrators to better administer that fund so that more people can attend some of these hearings? There are cases in which people who didn't have a credit card would not be able to attend parole hearings.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

The government is committed to helping victims, and I'm pleased to say that more victims are now attending these hearings than ever before. This certainly has been a priority of the government, and the mandate of anyone who administers these programs is not for just victims at home; sometimes the victims find themselves overseas, so there have been changes to our provisions with respect to those individuals as well.

Obviously we want these administered in the most sensitive and appropriate manner. I'm always looking for new suggestions as to what we might be able to do, but I can tell you that we've made a lot of progress in that area, and that's one of the areas for which I have been very proud.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Monsieur Ménard for five minutes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Minister, I know that your department funds criminology research, and I commend you.

Do you look at that research?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That's a very general question. We undertake a number of studies and we support research and that sort of thing.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Can you name the last criminology study you read?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

We'll get that for you, Monsieur Ménard, and pass it on to you.