Justice Committee on Oct. 21st, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

I call to order meeting number 30 of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. For the record, today is Thursday, October 21, 2010. I would just note that today's meeting is in fact televised.

You have before you the agenda for today. We are continuing and hopefully completing our review of Bill C-22, an act respecting the mandatory reporting of Internet child pornography by persons who provide an Internet service.

To assist us with our review, we have with us the Canadian Centre for Child Protection, its executive director, Lianna McDonald, as well as her assistant, Mary Milner. Welcome to both of you.

We're looking forward to hearing what you have to say. As you know, you have approximately ten minutes to present, and then we'll open the floor to questions from our members. So please proceed.

[Lianna McDonald, Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Child Protection]

Mr. Chairperson and distinguished members of the committee, I thank you for this opportunity to provide a presentation on Bill C-22, and the larger issue of child sexual abuse on the Internet. I have had the occasion to review some of the transcripts from the previous meetings, so my goal today is to provide insight and information that has not yet been presented, as well as to make a few clarifications and arguments in support of this new legislation.

The Canadian Centre for Child Protection will offer testimony today based on its role in operating Cybertip.ca, Canada's tip line to report online sexual exploitation of children, and based on its coordinating role with law enforcement and the public and private sectors in combatting online child victimization.

Cybertip.ca was established in 2002 in partnership with the Government of Canada, various provincial governments, a national law enforcement advisory committee, and a federal task force and steering committee.

Like other international hotlines, Cybertip.ca has analysts who are special constables who review, confirm, and triage reports to the appropriate law enforcement jurisdiction. This function permits the verification of the material as potentially illegal and identifies the appropriate jurisdiction, thereby saving very important time for Canadian law enforcement. In particular, the tip line accepts reports relating to child pornography, luring, child sex tourism, and children exploited through prostitution and child trafficking. The tip line is owned and operated by the Canadian Centre for Child Protection.

Since launching nationally, the tip line has received nearly 48,000 reports from the public regarding the online sexual exploitation of children, resulting in over 70 arrests by law enforcement and approximately 25 children being removed from abusive environments.

In 2009 our organization released a research report that provided an in-depth analysis of reports to Cybertip.ca. We have made the summary of that report available to you all this afternoon. It examined almost 16,000 child abuse websites, as well as over 4,100 unique images of child abuse, with the goal of providing an overview of the scope of the problem from the tip line's perspective.

As noted in previous presentations, the data from the report paint a sobering picture of the severity of this global problem. The reality is that 82% of the images analyzed depicted very young pre-pubescent children under the age of 12. Most concerning is the severity of the abuse depicted, with over 35% of all images showing serious sexual assaults. The report addressed the misconception that child pornography is really about young teens in provocative poses; rather, these images depict very young children, toddlers, and infants who are often being abused through vaginal, anal, and oral penetration, and in some instances including bondage and sadistic activities.

It is also important to note that these victims often are silenced because they are being abused by a person in a position of trust. Some of our youngest victims are pre-verbal and therefore unable to tell anyone. While information such as this is difficult to hear, it is more difficult to see, and worse to endure.

Some of the challenges in managing the proliferation of child abuse images on the Internet involve the transient nature of the material, and the challenge of identifying the victims and traders and collectors of the content.

Strategies to address this complex problem involve public education and disruption and enforcement tactics. In Canada, stakeholders in the area of child abuse images and material have made some significant inroads. Beyond our strong legislation, Canada's national strategy to protect children from exploitation on the Internet has provided a deliberate action plan to increase awareness, facilitate reporting, and support law enforcement efforts.

Additionally, it's very important to know that there has been longstanding collaboration from the private sector, most notably Canada's major Internet service providers. The Canadian Coalition Against Internet Child Exploitation, otherwise known as CCAICE, is a voluntary partnership between Cybertip.ca, law enforcement, and the private sector to address this problem. Through CCAICE, a number of important successes have been realized.

One example includes Cleanfeed Canada, which our organization operates. It's a solution to block access to foreign-based websites hosting child pornography. All of the major IPs participate in this program, and to date, over 11,357 unique URLs have been put on this list, blocking these sites from the view of the majority of Canadian citizens.

Similar to countries like Sweden, Denmark, and the United Kingdom, blocking initiatives are one part of the remedy.

After eight years of being directly engaged in the fight to eradicate the proliferation of online child pornography—

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Ms. McDonald, would you just speak a little more slowly? Our interpreters are having difficulty keeping up. Thank you.

[Lianna McDonald]

It's in my nature. Sorry about that. It's my ten-minute time limit; I'm trying to get it all in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Don't worry about the ten-minute time limit. We'll allow you to give your full presentation.

[Lianna McDonald]

Thank you.

The Canadian Centre for Child Protection is aware that there is no easy single solution to this problem. To engage other private industry groups in this fight, we are working with the RCMP's National Child Exploitation Coordination Centre, our strategy partner, to establish a Canadian financial coalition against child pornography. This partnership of prominent financial institutions and payment companies will work to identify and eradicate the commercial market for online child abuse imagery in Canada. The goal is to follow the money and disrupt the economics of the commercial child pornography business and to shut down payment accounts used by these illegal entities. This is just another example of the type of cooperation that is necessary to address this complex issue.

We know that reporting is a key component of any country's successful strategy to combat the online sexual exploitation of children. The widespread circulation of child abuse images and the fact that these pictures are viewed, collected, and traded among offenders allow for Internet users to inadvertently come across this type of harmful content. The public nature of the Internet, combined with the viral nature of child pornography, offers the opportunity for the public and Internet service providers to report and assist in the detection of this material.

The results and impact of mandatory reporting are evident in other jurisdictions. Cybertip.ca is the designated reporting agency under Manitoba's mandatory reporting of child pornography legislation. A report that will be released publicly within a few weeks highlights the impacts and success of this legislation. In Manitoba public reporting increased by 126% in the first year that the legislation was enacted, when compared to the previous year. The goal of the legislation was to facilitate reporting and as a result protect children. Cybertip triaged reports, which resulted in 17 reports containing information related to an identified child victim or suspect in Manitoba being forwarded to a child welfare agency.

The complicated nature of the propagation of child abuse images on the Internet creates additional challenges for those working to combat this issue. On the one hand, we need to stop the sexual abuse of children in homes and in neighbourhoods. By doing so, we will stop the images from getting on the Internet to begin with. On the other hand, we must manage the proliferation of the imagery once on the Internet, which fuels demand, consumption, and the normalization of the sexualization and abuse of children.

Good legislation, adequate resources, global cooperation, technical solutions, and public education are key components to getting ahead of the problem. Mandatory reporting legislation removes the professional and personal dilemma of reporting. It clarifies and reinforces what the major Internet service providers are already doing and offers protection for appropriate action. Companies will also need to develop policies and train employees to help them understand their legal obligations. Through such action, these employees will have additional education and knowledge on the issue, which will impact attitudes and beliefs and ultimately better protect children.

Moreover, this legislation will ensure compliance by others in the industry, including content and hosting providers. Based on reports to Cybertip as of October 19, 2010, there are over 250 live URLs hosting child abuse images in Canada. While Canadian law enforcement agencies currently have the authority to take action in such situations, it is complex and often difficult. Under the new legislation, content providers would also be obligated to report child pornography on their services. This action would serve to ensure that proper and swift remedial action is taken, with penalties promoting compliance.

Legislation also becomes a deterrent and sends the message that Canada will not become a haven for child abuse images in websites. Those profiting from the abuse of children often deliberately move content to avoid detection.

Countries with strong legislation create a disincentive for those involved in providing access to the illegal material. Enacting mandatory reporting legislation demonstrates a cognizance that society as a whole has a moral obligation to protect its most vulnerable citizens and that this obligation is a legal onus on those providing an Internet service, should they come across the content.

In concluding, there is still much work to be done in examining ways that we can better protect children. However, this legislation will put Canada among only nine countries worldwide that meet criteria established by the International Centre for Missing and Exploited Children, which examined existing child pornography legislation and agendas within nations. The report conducted research reviewing more than 196 countries around the world to examine existing legislation and to gauge where this issue stands on national political agendas. The issue of child abuse imagery and material is a global problem that requires strong and harmonized legislation between nations. Canada's leadership and decision to take this additional step sent a clear and strong message to its citizens and other countries that children are a national priority.

I thank you for this opportunity to present.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll open the floor to questions. Just as a reminder to everyone, after we complete that process I'm hoping to go to clause-by-clause. I'm assuming that everybody has submitted the amendments you want to bring forward.

We'll begin with Mr. Murphy, for seven minutes.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you.

I want to thank you very much for your presentation, for your work, for the written presentations, which are terrific. I'll be taking these home tonight to New Brunswick, which is conspicuous in its absence in not having a provincial law. I guess there are four Canadian jurisdictions who have drafted legislation, two of which are in effect. Your province of Manitoba is probably the gold standard. I know that you're the reporting entity in the legislation; you report on it, and that's fine—good work. I see that Nova Scotia has a proclaimed and “in effect” law. Are you the reporting agency for that? Or do you know what the reporting entity is there? It's not in the law but is by regulation. Do you know who it is?

[Lianna McDonald]

Yes, I do. I believe it to be the RCMP.

We have been in discussions with Minister Landry there. The reason we're advocating for the role we play is that, as you can see in these reports, we're able to collect important data. In our discussions right now with Nova Scotia, that is one of the things we are putting forward: needing to have consistency and continuity in the reporting structure.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

My understanding is that Ontario and Alberta have also at least drafted legislation. I note in your comments that there are nine countries. We seem to hear a lot about the United States.

Is this federal law in the United States, for which the Congress has entered, or is it state by state? What can you tell us briefly about what the situation is there in terms of legislation?

[Lianna McDonald]

What I can say is that in the research they did they looked at child pornography legislation in the United States. It is federal legislation that mandates that what they call ESPs or electronic service providers, to capture the broader types of people providing Internet services, all have a legal obligation to report child pornography, if they come across it in the course of providing services.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Is there anything you came to in the provincial statutes in Canada that is broader than you say in one of your briefs: that Manitoba was the first jurisdiction to have a more universal reporting piece of legislation? Is there anything like that in the United States? How many pieces of legislation like the Manitoba legislation are there in jurisdictions?

[Lianna McDonald]

To my knowledge, I can't say factually. I do not believe that there is any other country that has that obligation against all citizens, as it exists right now in Manitoba.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Here is a general question. Obviously we support this to the hilt; it's wonderful. The minister himself says it's a step in a process, so it isn't the end, but is part of the beginning, and we applaud you for your efforts.

My question is simple in words but hard to fathom. It's this: can this federal legislation be improved? Very cautious, erudite lawyers from the Department of Justice have told us that they want to impose a sanction on a duty that's universal to all Canadians and that hasn't to do with child and family services, which are, under the Constitution, certainly the domain of the provinces.

Do you see, however, that there is a broad duty on every citizen to report to the entity a child exploitation crime that is evidenced by child pornography in every instance? Do you see that as something that you'd like to see in federal legislation under the criminal power that the federal government has?

[Lianna McDonald]

That's an important question. We wrestle with this in wanting to facilitate reporting. We are certainly passionate about making more people aware and reporting. The challenge we're running into, even on the provincial side and even in our relationship and partnership with Ontario and Alberta, is that the issue surrounding the identification potentially of a child and the role of child welfare within that equation presents a number of complications. Those departments have to be primed, educated, and aware and know what to do. I think the challenge, if there were a federal obligation that wide, would really be how we then properly prepare the front-line folks and individuals who are going to be responsible for it.

That's part one. Part two is part of what we're seeing, and you will see this in the research report. We received 48,000 reports. Of that number, only 44% were triaged and forwarded to police because they would be deemed potentially illegal. Of that 44%, only a much smaller number ended up actually going to Canadian law enforcement agencies, meaning that the majority of the content is hosted outside of Canada.

So to answer the question, it's hard for us to say how we would institute and manage something that was so broad as to apply to every citizen in Canada under federal legislation.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I appreciate the argument about effecting a law, but do you think that the criminal power is broad enough to cover the duty of all Canadians to report to the reporting entity a crime when they see one, as is evidenced in the worst, I guess, of child pornography?

[Lianna McDonald]

I'm certainly not trying to avoid the question. I can't answer legally as to the criminal law powers. I don't have that knowledge.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I'm probably running out of time, but I just want to say this. There are two provinces, I think, that have proclaimed legislation and two others that are looking at it, but there are 13 provinces and territories. I'm in New Brunswick; there's no law at all. There will be this about the Internet service providers—I get that—but there's no law that's universal.

[Lianna McDonald]

One of the things we are working on in partnership with the provinces right now is to look at similar legislation that can properly apply within the provincial jurisdiction. We support provincial legislation in addition to this. We advocate for departments of family services to be looking at this, in terms of simply extending the definition of “child abuse” to include child pornography within the definition.

So from our agency's standpoint, we are working in tandem with the provinces as they review and explore this, and certainly with the federal government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move to Monsieur Ménard, for sept minutes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am going to have to ask you questions when I am barely familiar with your organization and I have had only a few minutes to become informed about it and read your interesting brochure.

You are testifying about a bill we are considering. We are aware that this bill provides partial solutions that a problem that is in fact very complex. If we wait for a perfect law, we might let a decade go by before anything gets done. Do you agree with us that this bill is a good step in the right direction and that it is essentially a good bill?

[Lianna McDonald]

Yes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Good. Obviously, this bill does not create an obligation for the public to report a pornographic site where there are children, if they happen to stumble across one when they are on the Internet. Would you like us to go that far, eventually?

[Lianna McDonald]

In terms of my earlier answer, really I can't speak to the powers of the criminal law spectrum and what we can do there.

It is important that we expedite and move quickly on this. I think this is good legislation. It is, as you've mentioned, sir, one piece of the puzzle.

I do think, though, that there is a reason why in provincial jurisdictions there is the responsibility for child welfare, which is more complex than simply taking in information. There is a whole different spectrum of proper training and evaluation and looking not just at maybe a child in a picture but the children within a home environment, other siblings, etc. They possibly would, and should, complement one another.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Your message is received. However, when I listen to you, I am not too clear on where you want to go. For example, do you want Internet service providers to have an obligation to look at the Internet sites they offer as part of their services to make sure that no child pornography is being offered to their customers?