Justice Committee on Nov. 16th, 2010

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Very briefly, Mr. Sauvé, all the logic seems to point to the idea that there are people who can be saved and reintegrated. Then the argument comes, well, there's a 15-year wall in any event, even under current legislation. Would you think that it should be moved back to 10 years or five years?

[Rick Sauvé]

My belief is that people should be returned to their community, earn the right to be returned to the community, when they've completed their rehabilitation. They're no longer considered a risk to the community. If somebody's considered a risk, then they shouldn't be returned to the community.

I don't think there's any number...there's no magic number that you can put on when somebody's rehabilitated. It's a process that starts inside, and the person has to demonstrate that. It's not an easy process to get by the National Parole Board, to earn your way from maximum security down to minimum security, and then to find a community that's willing to accept you. It's a long process.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

And we accept the classic double entendre of “it begins inside”--

[Rick Sauvé]

That's right.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

--in prison.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Mr. Lemay, you have five minutes.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you for being here.

You have heard the previous witnesses. We have the numbers. Mr. McIsaac, I would like to know how it can be that in Canada, people who have been sentenced to life spend an average of 28.5 years in prison today. Is there an explanation? We are told that murderers are always released too soon, but people who have been convicted of murder are now spending 28.5 years in prison. I would like to understand what has happened or what is happening to make the time in prison longer—not a lot, but longer—than in Europe or elsewhere.

[Ed McIsaac]

I believe there's no one answer. But I think one of the variables that has come into play is the existence of mandatory minimums. When you begin to remove discretion, whether it is at the court level in the sentencing process or at the parole decision level with regard to release, you end up with a focus not on the individual, not on the individual circumstances of the crime itself or the individual characteristics that led that person to that situation; you begin to address and respond to an act rather than an individual.

If you look prior to 1976, as I had indicated in my opening remarks, the average length of time was somewhere around 15 years, which is relatively consistent with what we see in New Zealand, Australia, and western Europe. The bringing into force of the mandatory minimum at that point I think was the key variable in causing us to now be in a situation, almost 25 years later, where we have offenders serving in excess of 28 years, on average, prior to being released.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I imagine you submitted a brief to this committee. Did you prepare a brief?

[Ed McIsaac]

The John Howard Society created a brief that it provided to the Senate committee, which was initially reviewing the legislation. I'm sorry, as with the Quebec bar, I thought the paper had been transferred over. It will be provided to your clerk and copies will be given.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I imagine we will be receiving it. Thank you.

Mr. Sauvé, some journalists or some people who analyze the prison system say that if Bill S-6 is enacted as it now stands, there is a risk of an increase in violence in prisons, since some inmates will no longer have the faint hope clause. They will know they are going to be incarcerated for the rest of their lives. What do you think about that?

[Rick Sauvé]

I believe there's the possibility of that taking place. I've been working with LifeLine, going back into prisons, and I'm in my 13th year of going back inside. Many of the men I work with hold that faint hope clause as something to work towards. Most of the men and women, when they get to that 15-year point where they can first make their application, say, “I really don't want to go through this. I don't want to put the victims through this. I don't want to put my own family through this. I think I can continue. I've already got 15 years in, and I can see a little light at the end of the tunnel now.” So most of them don't apply.

But if you remove that hope and you remove that glimmer of a goal to work towards--the 15 years--there's nothing. You're going to be sitting in a maximum security prison saying, “I'm going to be here for a minimum of 25 years and probably a lot longer.” What do they have to look forward to?

I've heard people say we have to protect the public. Well, the staff, the volunteers, the visitors, the nursing staff--all those people are the public who are working inside the system, so you are putting those people at risk.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Sauvé, did you apply right at the 15-year mark, when you first could?

[Rick Sauvé]

That's when you can begin the application. I was under a different set of rules, but it was about 16 years by the time I got to go to court. I went through the court process, and then I could start applying to the parole board.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So from the time you applied after the 15 years, from the time you started the process until you were actually released, how much time went by?

[Rick Sauvé]

It was about 16 years.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

No, I'm sorry, I mean just the period of time from when you applied until you were actually released.

[Rick Sauvé]

Oh, I'm sorry. It was about nine months. We had to get court space. We had to get a judge that was available. We had to get a crown attorney. I had to find a lawyer, and then a jury had to be empanelled. There was a preliminary hearing and then the process itself.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Did that nine months include the parole process?

[Rick Sauvé]

No.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

How long did the parole process take?

[Rick Sauvé]

I was successful at having my parole eligibility reduced to 15, but I'd already had 16 in at that point. I could then apply to the National Parole Board, but before I could do that, I had to have more psychological assessments and another psychiatric assessment, and there were other conditions I had to meet. I had to find a halfway house, so then I could begin the process of looking towards reintegrating into the community.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

How long did that process take?

[Rick Sauvé]

It took another three or four months before I got in front of the National Parole Board. Then I was granted unescorted passes to a halfway house, so that process took another year.