Justice Committee on Nov. 30th, 2010

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I want it all to go in, Mr. Murphy. As a matter of fact, none of the money has been spent on child advocacy centres yet, because I only announced it about three weeks ago in Toronto. At the time, I encouraged those who are active in this area of child advocacy centres; yes, there will be applications, and I want them to take advantage of this, because this is the first time the federal government has been involved with something like that.

Up to this point, these child advocacy centres have been relying on municipalities, service groups, bake sales, and this sort of thing. I'm pleased that the federal government is coming forward with money. Again, in direct answer to you, none of that money has been directed to advertising. I don't want it to be part of advertising; I want it to be in terms of the applications of these individuals. As I indicated, advertising of the type that I did refer to—coming from my colleague the Minister of Health and other members—is something separate from that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move to Monsieur Ménard for seven minutes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you.

Minister, our objective today is to deal with your requests under the Supplementary Estimates. However, I don't think I heard anything in your presentation related to the budget. I would like you to enlighten me on that subject.

I understand your legislative program. You are placing great emphasis on the comfort that victims would derive from the fact that the persons responsible for crimes committed against them would be accountable and serve longer terms. However, victims generally express quite different needs, and those needs represent costs.

In your budget, have you made any additional requests for the purpose of meeting needs other than the satisfaction of seeing criminals serve longer terms?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you.

I didn't mention too much about the budget. Believe it or not, Monsieur Ménard, when I've been here in the past over the last four years, most of the questions had nothing to do with the budget.

Mr. Comartin, you were an exception to that, but most of the questions are about general policy or specific issues that relate to the justice portfolio.

I'll give you an example that is specific to victims. The whole area of child advocacy centres, which, as I indicated, I made an announcement about three weeks ago, is part of the supplementary estimates.

I feel very strongly about that, because these child advocacy centres are set up to assist children who have been victimized, children who will be witnesses within the criminal justice system. What the centres do is provide a safe, reassuring setting for children to make their case and so prepare them for either the questioning or the possible court course that will follow. I feel very strongly about it. As I indicated to you, I had a first-hand look at what they were doing in St. Catharines, Ontario, which is next door to my constituency. I was very impressed by that.

So yes, that is directly in the supplementary estimates, as is the support for victims services as they relate to aboriginal Canadians. You will know there was an allocation for that in the last federal budget, which is reflected in the supplementary estimates as well.

So you're quite correct that greater funds are being allocated for victims in this country within the supplementary estimates. Again, that's appropriate, but of course that goes hand-in-hand with the programs that I've already indicated to you. I talked to you about the victims fund that we initiated in 2007 and that of course will continue for this year as well.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I don't have much time, and I see that your example once again concerns the judicial proceedings of victims. However, many victims need other things as well. By that, I don't mean that helping them institute legal proceedings is a bad idea. I simply want to know whether you are ensuring that victims get the psychological support they need to get through this difficult time.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. Helping children get through this and bringing in a wide range of support--everything from psychologists to others helping children get through this--is a very important part of our program to assist victims.

I would encourage you and others, if you're aware of groups that want to make applications under the victims funds that we have set up, to by all means come forward. There have been some very impressive applications that have come forward. Again, the whole area of child advocacy centres just happens to be the newest area, but I think these centres are very important, because they send out the right message, which is that we want to support those individuals who become involved in one way or the other with the legal system of this country.

In addition, quite frankly, I've been impressed over the years by provincial authorities in my discussions. They take this matter very, very seriously, and I don't have to tell you how involved provinces are with that in the health care profession or health care area. We have part of it, and a very important role to play, but again, I certainly commend the provinces, and in many cases the municipalities, for what they're doing.

In my own area of Niagara, the regional health department is very involved with reaching out to people and assisting them in any way possible.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

You talk a lot about increasing minimum sentences. I believe you're aware that the consequence of these measures will be that a lot more people in Canada will be incarcerated and for much longer periods of time.

Before introducing these kinds of bills and thus imposing an additional financial burden, do you conduct studies to obtain even only an approximate idea of what they represent financially?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

We spend a lot of time worrying about the financial implications for victims of crime. I've been told it's approximately $70 billion a year that victims in this country suffer...so I'm very much motivated by bringing in legislation that might get some of these individuals off the street who repeatedly victimize people. If you're asking me with respect to detaining these individuals, I of course rely on my colleague, the Minister of Public Safety, who has assured me on numerous occasions that we can and will meet the demands on the system.

That being said, part of what we did in getting rid of the two-for-one credit.... I had every provincial attorney general, every single one of them, tell me that the two-for-one system that had been in existence in this country was clogging up provincial resources. It was costing them money in terms of people delaying, people who were looking for a discount in their sentence.

The Attorney General of British Columbia told me that he had heard of a case where the guy didn't even want to have a bail hearing. I can hardly imagine that, practising law as I did in St. Catharines and Niagara Falls: a client who didn't want to have a bail hearing. Why? Because they were racking up two-for-one credits. I was very sensitive to that, and I told provincial attorneys general that I would do my very best to get rid of that practice of two-for-one, because I had all kinds of sympathy for them. Among other things, this was clogging up provincial resources, and it was costing them money.

Again, I'm hoping you'll discover, as I'm discovering, that this has been very well received, and it will benefit everyone within the criminal justice system, including our provincial counterparts.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move to Mr. Comartin for seven minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister and Deputy Minister, for being here.

With regard to the funding for the $2.5 million for the investigation of missing persons, will any of that actually be spent in this fiscal period? In effect, what I'm asking, Mr. Minister, is this. Given the length of time, including the year-end break that we'll be having, will any of these agencies be able to get their applications in and approved and to actually begin to spend money before the end of March?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It would certainly be my hope on that, Mr. Comartin. If you like, we will keep you apprised of those, because when my colleague Minister Ambrose made this announcement, again, that was always my concern on these things. We want to get the money out the door as quickly as possible, to get that to great organizations that make those applications. I would be pleased, since you've raised an interest on that, to let you know when they are approved.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Just for the record, Mr. Chair, can we have the department give us the result some time after the end of March as to how much of the funds were spent, and if they weren't all spent, how much is remaining?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I would be glad to do that. It's a very reasonable request.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Minister, if it doesn't get spent, what happens to these budgetary items? Do they just fall off the table at that point?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well, again--

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm sorry, but what I'm asking is, can you spend them in the 2011-12 period?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Again, we'd have to cross that bridge when we get to it. My determination is that we will spend the money that's allotted to us.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Do you expect to have a similar amount allocated? I'm going to ask what's going to be in the budget. That's what I'm asking now. Do you expect--

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm just trying to get past these estimates here.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I understand the problem you have. Will you be seeking a similar amount from the finance minister for 2011-12?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well, again, the Minister of Finance, I'm sure, will hear, very loud and clear, about my concern for victims right across the board and that will be part of the upcoming budget discussions we will have with him.

Deputy Minister...?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

If you think it will have any impact on him, I think you can assure him that the rest of the members of this committee would be supporting you in that regard.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That's good.

[Myles Kirvan, Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice]

I might just add, Mr. Chairman, that the budget 2010 figure, the $10 million, was over a period of two years. There are certain funds, as you and the minister were just discussing, that are for this fiscal year only. Those are the funds that are set aside for the aboriginal organizations looking at public legal education and so on. The bulk of it, the $10 million, is over a two-year period.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think the point you were trying to make was, would it lapse if it doesn't get out by March 1? It will not.