Justice Committee on Jan. 31st, 2011

[Ellen Campbell]

No, we don't.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Does yours, Mr. Rushfeldt?

[Brian Rushfeldt]

Yes.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

The reason I ask is that I have heard some members of Parliament say that the people of Quebec are different and that they don't think there should be mandatory minimum penalties, even for those who commit incest or for those who commit aggravated sexual assault on victims under the age of 16 years. I have a hard time believing that's what the people of Quebec think. If you have members in Quebec, do they express that to you, or do you get a different message from them?

[Brian Rushfeldt]

We haven't had a specific sorting of the members when we collected the roughly 85,000 names on petitions. They came from all over Canada. So I can't really say whether our Quebec members think differently than the rest of Canada, unfortunately.

If I can express my opinion, I know some of our Quebec members personally--a little. I would have a hard time believing that those members would agree that there shouldn't be mandatory sentences for people who are abusing defenceless kids. I don't think that's how they would look at it, but that's only my opinion.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

It squares with mine as well.

I'll just ask one last question, and then if there's time I'll share my time with Mr. Norlock.

Ms. Campbell, earlier Mr. Rushfeldt was asked a question by my colleague about the cost of prisons. It's a fact that this is something we often hear: that it's too costly to put these people in jail; it doesn't matter if they have committed incest or aggravated sexual assault against victims under 16; mandatory minimum penalties just fill up our jails and we can't afford that. So I wonder if you would like a chance.... What would you say to that argument?

[Ellen Campbell]

I really agree also with my colleague here that I think it's going to balance out, because the medical cost.... I mean, I can't begin to tell you the people that I see who are in therapy, who are in depression, hospital care, loss of work--we do a lot in the workplace. So I think maybe one's going to offset the other, because the costs are so high.

But I still think we have to come back to what is the value of that child--how can you put a value? You have to protect the children. Somehow we've got to make that the priority here, the cost to protect children.

Again, these people.... I mean, I don't know exactly the statistics, my colleagues are much better at statistics than I am, but I know that when one pedophile is caught, how many times has he already perpetrated, twenty times or something? So you have to take him out of society and get him into protection. Please, if you let them out, put them on electronic monitoring.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you very much. Mr. Norlock will get a chance next round.

Ms. Mendes, you had a question. Then we'll move on to Mr. Lee.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I just have one comment, Mr. Chair, and I'll pass on to my colleague Mr. Lee.

I'm wondering if any of you are aware of the book The Kindness of Strangers. Have you read it or have you heard of it? I definitely recommend it. It's one of the most disturbing books written on child pornography and child abuse by parents, and the recommendations thereof, and how it looks at the whole problem of abuse by family members or people the children know.

I think one of the biggest recommendations in that book is how the schools are and should be the best place to detect how children are being abused and to denounce it. We put a lot of emphasis on what the police have to do in terms of investigations, but often the front-line detectives in terms of what kids are going through will be the teachers. They would be the best ones and the most appropriate ones to start providing information on what's happening to the children and eventually get them to be sentenced and taken out.

That's my comment, and I will pass on to Mr. Lee.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

There is in this bill the section of the Criminal Code that deals with indecent acts. It doesn't have anything to do specifically with child pornography or luring or anything like that. It's the section that refers to anyone who willfully does an indecent act in a public place with an intent to insult or offend anyone.

To your knowledge or experience, is there any linkage between that and the child pornography envelope we're purportedly legislating on here? Does anyone have a thought on that? It just looked a little out of place to me, but I certainly wouldn't want to dispense with the section. I'm just wondering if there's a linkage.

[Catherine Dawson]

I think that any inappropriate sexual behaviour that children are exposed to changes their thinking about sexual behaviour. My research indicates that a lot of pedophiles use other children sexualized to show children having sex with other children in order for kids to think this is a normal thing to do.

I think what you're talking about is public masturbation. I think that what happens normally--I think that's what they are referring to here--if it's over a period of time, it will condition a child's thinking to think that's an okay thing or that's a normal thing.

I would be sort of dead against removing that portion from the bill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing today.

I became a member of Parliament for three basic reasons. The second one was that I was exposed in my 30-year career in policing as a general police officer but also as a court officer in three jurisdictions to sentencing and laws that I thought needed improvement, and this is definitely one of them.

I'll start with an anecdotal story. It's probably the main impetus behind my decision to get involved with politics, and that was an incestuous relationship between a father and three of his four daughters, and the subsequent sentence. By the way, these girls ended up being married...it's a long story, and there were years and years of counselling. The sentence was six years in jail and six years probation. He received that “severe” a sentence, in the judge's words, because he was a police officer. In the United States, I believe he would have gotten sixty years. Now, I'm not saying sixty is the right number, but for sure--and I know that case--six wasn't.

I'm going to ask you some questions, and because of the time, I'm going to ask you not to just say yes or no--because you can't really always answer questions with a yes or no--but to try to keep your response short so that everyone has a chance to answer.

I don't believe a pedophile can be cured, but I want your opinion. Given all of your experience in the field of law enforcement or in child advocacy or victim counselling or criminological studies, do you believe that a person who is a pedophile can be cured?

We can start with Ms. Campbell and work across.

[Ellen Campbell]

I don't think so at all. I think there are what they call crimes of opportunity, which I still think are pedophilia. Once somebody offends.... Given all my experience, all my knowledge, I know of one instance, really quickly, in which there was a support group and the offenders had to be accountable. They came in every week for eight weeks, but as soon as the support group was over, they all went and reoffended. So no, I don't.

[Det Insp Scott Naylor]

No.

[Brian Rushfeldt]

I would say probably not, from my experience as a social worker and also from the research I've read, but I think we do owe every one of those individuals at least an opportunity, while they're incarcerated, to hopefully get their life together.

[Catherine Dawson]

I believe that if you're sexually attracted to children, that sexual attraction stays with you for life, but I also believe that through community intervention, such as circles of responsibility, that supervision and managing the sex offender can be conducted in the community, with varying degrees of success.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

Starting with Ms. Dawson and working the other way, do you believe that pedophiles generally know that what they are doing is a crime? In your opinion, do they know it's illegal, and do you believe they feel it is immoral--in other words, socially unacceptable?

[Catherine Dawson]

A study that came out of the U.K. last year indicated that the average person who was distributing child pornographic material in the U.K. was 38 years old and was involved in the IT community or had the intelligence to conduct IT programming and software to encrypt his materials and hide his materials. So we're not talking about somebody who's neurologically impaired.

I believe that people do know that it's wrong, and I can't comment morally.

[Brian Rushfeldt]

I have no doubt they know it's illegal. That's why they try to cover their tracks in every aspect.

As far as whether they believe it's immoral, I certainly have heard comments that they don't believe Canada's all that bad, or that they believe this is a good place to be, because if you do get caught, sentences aren't too bad here. Don't go to Cambodia, where you'll probably get 15 years, or the United States, where you might get 50 or 60 years for multiple offences.

I still think in some ways there is some sense that it's immoral as well, but the sentence and how we treat it is a major portion of why we're seeing what we see in Canada.

[Det Insp Scott Naylor]

I can support that comment. As somebody who lives in that world by virtue of my occupation, I think these offenders are like-minded individuals, and as my colleague said, they try to normalize their behaviour.

Speaking on deterrence, I can also say that intercepting and chatting with these people, I know that once a law enforcement technique gets out there, it goes worldwide very quickly. If a sentence gets out there, or there is the possibility of a sentence being increased or minimum sentencing, that will get out there as well.

So I'm not speaking to the deterrence of the one person who is charged; I'm speaking to the deterrence of all the people who are communicating on perhaps that chat line or in that forum. That will get out there.

Whether or not they know that it's immoral, I can't really speak to that. They definitely know that it's illegal.

[Ellen Campbell]

I think I agree. They know it's illegal; they wouldn't do it in secret. There are books that actually support it, like “Men loving boys loving men”, where they actually get support from one another and perhaps convince themselves it's all right. I think there is a segment where we've also dealt with perpetrators who want help. So there is a segment who wants to get better.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll go to Monsieur Petit for five minutes.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I want to thank all of you for meeting with us this afternoon. Your presentations were quite impressive.

Ms. Campbell, I have a question for you, but I want to make a comment first.

When you hear the word “pedophile”, it is usually people with mental health problems, as Ms. Dawson said, who come to mind. You can find actors, journalists, teachers and hockey coaches who have taken advantage of children. I am talking about cases I have heard about, cases we have all heard about, cases we will hear about in the future.

Right now, in Quebec, there are incest cases under way. An 18-month-old child was the victim of incest. That is one case going on right now. There are child pornography cases involving children's television actors.

I am from Quebec. Don't think we are all the same. We can still see a difference.

This is what I am getting at. You have seen the bill. It seeks to increase what are known as mandatory minimum penalties (MMPs) with respect to incest, bestiality, Internet luring, exposure, sexual assault against a person under 16 years of age, sexual assault with a weapon against a person under 16 years of age—we are still talking about children here, according to the code—and aggravated sexual assault against a person under 16 years of age.

When you look at these crimes, do you think it makes sense to increase or impose mandatory prison sentences in these cases? For the most part, we are talking about incest cases, the most common type.

Do you think we are on the right track? You were a victim, and as such, you know what goes on. Do you think we are doing the right thing by increasing prison sentences in these kinds of cases?

[Ellen Campbell]

Absolutely. Any crime perpetrated against a child, whether it's through child pornography or right to the extreme, I do believe we have to have a minimum sentence. It sends a message to the perpetrators and it also sends a wonderful message to the victims. That is the biggest cry for the people I deal with, and for me. There doesn't seem to be anybody caring about what happens to the victims. So absolutely there needs to be a minimum.

In my experience also, with all due respect to what you were commenting on, Mr. Norlock, when the judges do have discretion, they don't give maximum sentences. I don't know if I've ever seen a judge yet give a maximum sentence. So I like the fact that there's a minimum sentence and they don't have an option, because I just find that the judges are very, very soft on crime. That's been my experience, with all due respect here.