Justice Committee on Feb. 7th, 2011

[Andrew McWhinnie]

Certainly, sir.

I have in my hands “Sex Offender Treatment Outcome Research”, from the research division of the Correctional Service of Canada. It shows significant reductions in sexual recidivism, violent recidivism, and any kind of criminal activity following treatment for sexual offences.

Sexual offences against children would be classified as deviant sexual arousal, clearly, but they are also included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders by the American Psychiatric Association. It is a mental disorder. It can't be cured in any respect, but it can certainly be managed and managed well in the community, as the numbers I have just referred to you state.

Also, in my own experience as a clinician I can tell you that these things are perfectly amenable.

Thank you.

[Lianna McDonald]

I would agree with my colleague about those who have a sexual interest in children. The question was whether it can be cured. I would say and the experts we work with would say no; it can possibly be managed.

It is also important to note that there are a number of variables in the individual's commitment to treatment, their long-term commitment, the number of environmental triggers and factors around them, and their ability to have access to children, with a number of really important factors. Certainly a lot of the literature and research suggests that it is about risk management.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Is prison the appropriate place to treat people?

[Karyn Kennedy]

If I could just respond, I respectfully would disagree with my colleague. I believe that for some individuals it may be a mental disorder; for others, really, it's not and it's an issue of power and control.

I don't currently work with sex offenders, but I have in my career. The ones who are able to benefit from treatment are the ones who are also willing to admit and take responsibility, and in my experience that's not the majority of sex offenders. I believe that for many, prison is necessary in order to have some leverage to get them into treatment. And there are many good institutional treatment programs that can be initiated while somebody is in custody and they can continue treatment in the community. But for many sex offenders, taking part in treatment is not necessarily something they agree to very easily.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Could we have a further answer from Lianna?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Perhaps you could also enlighten us on another matter.

What advice do you give to parents these days to ensure their children do not fall into these types of Internet traps?

I was not exposed to pornography very much when I was a young person. However, when we did come across any pornographic books, I can assure you that it wasn't something that we discussed with our parents.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Ms. Rimer.

[Pearl Rimer]

When we speak to parents we talk to them about the process of protecting their kids, actually early on, about the messages they're giving their kids from pre-school onward. It's really about open communication and giving the kids the message that if anything happens to them they feel uncomfortable with, whether it's in the online or the offline world, they should talk to an adult they trust. And we actually tell parents to make it okay for their kids not to go to the parents. So I would say to my child, I'd really want you to come to me, but if you were embarrassed or you didn't want to, who else could you go to who you trust about anything that happens that makes you feel uncomfortable?

We also help parents to understand what's normal for teens. When we didn't have the Internet, we flirted, and that was normal. Kids now have the Internet for flirting. So say to your kids, hey, we get it, you guys do this; but again, if anything happens that makes you feel uncomfortable, talk to someone you trust.

We also tell parents it's about self-esteem, it's about the types of kids who offenders target, and it's about supervision and how that changes over the developmental path. So we do give them a developmental perspective around that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move to Mr. Comartin for seven minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Ms. Kennedy, I want to start with you because I want to challenge you on the position you've taken with regard to the availability of treatment, particularly at the provincial level. It's not great at the federal level by any means either, but at the provincial level there are any number of provinces where it's basically non-existent for the short-term sentences that we're going to have here--the 90-day to the one-year-. It just doesn't exist. That's my experience, and I'm actually calling witnesses who are going to say that.

Again, the government is dumping this cost on the provinces, with no corresponding finances going with it. Am I wrong? Every experience I've had, both as a practising lawyer and in my seven years on this committee, tells me and all the evidence I've heard says that we don't have those services at the provincial level. And the vast majority of the mandatory minimums that are going to be affected here, that are actually going to come into play, are going to be at the provincial level. They're not two years plus, they're two years less. So I just don't see it there.

[Karyn Kennedy]

I think you're right, but I would also argue that there aren't resources in the communities either to provide treatment.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That was going to be my next question.

[Karyn Kennedy]

Yes. Certainly not in my experience in Toronto.... Ten years ago there were resources that don't exist any more. So I'm not sure what is available in the provincial system now, but I'm also convinced there is little available in the community.

I'm not sure that's a reason to argue against mandatory minimum sentences, but I think you can still use the opportunity of having somebody in custody to get them engaged in treatment and get them thinking about it and taking responsibility for it. I think it also sends a very powerful message to the victim that this has been taken seriously. And having worked with thousands and thousands of victims, I see many who are disappointed and discouraged by their experience in the criminal justice system.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Well, if that were true, Ms. Kennedy, the United States would have much lower sex crimes than we have, and in fact the opposite is true, because of the size of the penalties they have there. That doesn't work.

Mr. McWhinnie, with regard to services in the community, you told us the number of people who were involved in the circles. How many circles are there across Canada, and how did they get started?

[Andrew McWhinnie]

There are currently 162 circles in Canada, across the country. Circles are started when a person leaves prison and finishes their sentence if they are identified as sexual offenders at high risk to reoffend. We work closely with the correctional agencies to know who these people are and to be able to offer them a circle of support and accountability at that point.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You do a lot of work with the Mennonite Central Committee. Is that correct?

[Andrew McWhinnie]

I do some work with the Mennonite Central Committee.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So in terms of the services and what's available in the community versus what's available at the provincial level--because most of these offences are going to go there if this goes through--what's it like? Where is it better, not just in terms of quality but also in terms of availability?

[Andrew McWhinnie]

At the provincial level, in the community, while people are under sentence they're usually required, as a condition of their probation order and sometimes as a condition of their 810 order, to report and take treatment as directed by the probation officer. Forensic clinics in most provinces exist. Often they don't exist in rural areas or areas that are away from major centres, as I mentioned in my presentation.

The fact of the matter is that if we're talking about treatment, this bill is not going to get it there. These people are going to jail for mandatory minimums, and those mandatory minimums have absolutely nothing to do with whether a person receives or does not receive treatment. That's the flaw in this bill.

As for the other parts of the bill, in terms of the laws that are being added, I don't really see any problems with adding those additional laws for the reasons cited by my colleagues. But the mandatory minimums are not going to touch treatment. People are not going to receive treatment in jail for those periods of time. For periods of less than a year, they are not likely to receive any treatment inside an institution.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

What about the position Ms. Kennedy has taken--because I know you've indicated you worked with victims of sexual abuse as well--that it gives them a sense of justice? And I don't mean retribution but just that the stronger penalties give them a sense of justice.

[Andrew McWhinnie]

I know that the bill says we want to deliver a message to Canadians that we take the sexual assault of children seriously. For goodness' sake, can anybody in this room tell me that there are people in Canada who don't take the sexual assault of children seriously? We simply do not need to add another law to do that. What victims want is for the offences to stop, and they want the people responsible for them to receive treatment. Sending them to jail for increasingly long periods of time, as you, sir, have just pointed out, has not worked in places where we've conducted that experiment, such as the United States of America.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Spratt or Mr. Russomanno, when I was practising and somebody was charged in a child sexual abuse case, one of the first things I did was to get them into counselling. Is that still the common practice? Do defence lawyers normally do that as a matter of course, assuming there's going to be a guilty plea or a finding of guilt?

[Leonardo Russomanno]

I think that's certainly one of the positive steps that can be taken up front. That way, when the time comes for sentencing, you're able to show that there were some steps taken. One of the things I was going to add before, which I think is still relevant here, is that we're dealing not only with treatment for sexual deviance per se but also with mental health issues and drug addictions, which also require treatment.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I had a quick question for Ms. McDonald. Where are we as far as getting your agency to be the one to deal with the luring provisions and getting you more money?

[Lianna McDonald]

We are working towards asking to be the designated agency under Bill C-22.