Justice Committee on March 7th, 2011

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt, Ms. Turpel-Lafond. But do you agree with saying that no young person who is under the age of 18 years is to serve the sentence in a prison for adults? Are you in favour of this amendment?

Ms. Godin, do you agree with this amendment? Do you agree with specifying that, in Canada, no young person is to be put in a prison...?

[Sylvie Godin]

Yes, absolutely.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay.

Ms. Turpel-Lafond, do you also agree?

[Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond]

I think it's a very commendable change. It's one of those instances that we think are very commendable clarifications, because the practice is inconsistent from place to place. It's one of those narrow areas that we think is extremely valuable.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I have one last question for either Ms. Godin or Ms. Turpel-Lafond. The proposed amendment “would require the Crown to consider seeking an adult sentence for youth convicted of a “serious violent offence”—that is, murder, attempted murder, manslaughter or aggravated sexual assault.”

Do you agree with this amendment? It deals with the four most serious offences in the Criminal Code. Do you agree with giving the Crown the power to ask judges to consider passing a heavier sentence when a serious crime is committed? Ms. Godin, do you agree with this amendment that would refer to four specific crimes?

[Sylvie Godin]

Yes.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Ms. Turpel-Lafond, do you agree as well?

[Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond]

I think it's important to bring the act into conformity with the decision of the Supreme Court of Canada around that issue. I understand there has been some insight taken in that case of R. v. D.B. to comply with that decision.

I think there are some challenges around the proposed amendments. I'm concerned about the emphasis on adult sentences and whether that will meet the circumstances, and I'm a bit concerned about the redefinition of serious violent offences and what will be covered. I'm certainly not unqualified there, and I think there needs to be more careful review and evaluation of how that will function and operate. I think there are still some concerns there.

[Sylvie Godin]

I would like to add, if I may, Mr. Petit—

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Un moment. I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Dechert, because he has a question too.

You have two minutes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, ladies, for your comments here today.

Ms. Illingworth, I want to start with you. I want to first of all acknowledge and thank your organization for the good work you do in assisting victims of crime.

You mentioned in your remarks that your organization frequently hears complaints about the YCJA, especially with respect to violent criminals. I think it's important that we as parliamentarians listen to the concerns and comments of victims. We frequently hear from advocates for offenders, especially in this committee and elsewhere, but we rarely hear from the victims themselves. Can you tell us what you have heard from victims of crime about their concerns with respect to the YCJA?

[Heidi Illingworth]

Just to repeat what I've said throughout the brief, many of the families we deal with are concerned about young people with long histories of either extrajudicial measures or previous crimes. They feel that they're released on bail and are pretty much free to do whatever they want--that the person who is responsible for them, a parent or whoever, isn't keeping adequate supervision of them. We've also seen harassment of victims and their families by young offenders who are waiting to go to trial.

There are privacy issues around the publication bans. The identity of many families in which a young person is murdered is also hidden or restricted from being in the media. Family members aren't allowed to talk about that child—who they were or what they were going to be—because the process is ongoing against the accused person, whose identity is protected.

There are many issues that we hear from the families we help, and some of them are outlined in our brief.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

You're out of time. Sorry.

We have time for a round of two and a half minutes apiece. Why don't we start with Ms. Jennings?

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

I just have one question, and if there's time left, my colleague Brian Murphy will use it.

We had Professor Jacques Dionne here last week. He mentioned that Quebec is the only place in Canada where an in-depth study is being done on the real, fact-based impacts of the Youth Criminal Justice Act. He also said that the study would take two years.

Are you familiar with this study funded by the Quebec government, and do you know whether other provinces or territories in Canada want to undertake a study like that?

[Sylvie Godin]

Yes, I am aware of the study that is underway in Quebec. I was a bit taken aback by the two-year timeframe, but given the nature of the work required to do the study, that's probably very likely. I also think that one of the major challenges is finding data to support the study. It will be interesting to see the outcome of this research.

So yes, in Quebec, we will see some results very soon.

Unfortunately, I don't know whether this type of research is being done in the other provinces.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

It's your turn.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you.

I'll just ask this of the panel generally. Clause 18 in Bill C-4 amends section 72, and this has to do with adult sentences. The prosecutors have come forward in three provinces, I believe, with the suggestion that the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard should not be put in the act, as it is now in Bill C-4, and also the taking into account of background circumstances regarding the seriousness of the offence and the personal circumstances of the young person, such as age, maturity, and character. These are all things that judges generally do, but they like to have the bedrock of legislation.

They seem to be, in part, quite reasonable suggestions. They're suggesting it will be watered down, but there will be no background for the court to draw on. Briefly, what do you think of the prosecutors' suggestion, if I have summarized it well enough for you to comment?

[Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond]

I think there are some issues around the evidentiary requirements in terms of those applications. They've raised some issues.

The issue about the evidence to rebut the presumption is a significant issue, and I think there is some level of impracticality about it that would lead to protracted problems on the ground. This may be another reason it would be valuable to step back and try to be more comprehensive, thorough, and careful with these amendments, so that in fact they'll save those protracted disputes over rebutting presumptions and so on when the proposed bill is not very clear.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll go to Monsieur Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

No, I would rather let my colleague ask some questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Monsieur Ménard, you have two and a half minutes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Ms. Illingworth, since you are dealing a lot with the victims, I am curious whether you think that the rehabilitation of young offenders is not consistent with what the victims want.

[Heidi Illingworth]

No, I don't, not at all. Victims certainly recognize that most children or most adolescents who are involved with the youth criminal justice system have not committed serious violent crimes. It's only a small minority, and even those who have been impacted as victims, whether it's by young offenders or adult offenders, don't want that person to do it again. That's what we hear most from all survivors. They want no one else to suffer what they have suffered, so rehabilitation is a very important subject for victims and survivors, as is reintegration, because they know that most offenders are coming back into society eventually.