Justice Committee on March 23rd, 2011

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Bill C-4 limits, both in terms of placing people...even when there hasn't been a murder. We're not talking about moving them into the adult sentencing category. But with a violent offender, it's going to be more limited if this bill goes through than it is now. Use of adult sentences is going to be more limited than under current legislation. That's the effect of Bill C-4, and that's what those prosecutors told us. They're the ones who work in the field. I know this area fairly well, but they are the experts. They're the ones who do it on a daily basis. That's what they're telling us. So Bill C-4 is going to make their jobs tougher in those two areas, as well as in pre-trial custody.

[Joseph Wamback]

I don't have the advantage of seeing the documentation you've obviously seen. I believe we have to provide the judges and the prosecutors in our communities across this country with greater latitude to exercise discretion and be able to ensure that extremely violent and repeat offenders are dealt with effectively to provide for a rehabilitative program in a custodial environment, or to keep them off the street so they don't hurt other people.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I think I can say for everybody here that we all agree that's really the motive. It's just that Bill C-4 doesn't do it.

Professor Reid, I have just a quick question. The whole issue of record-keeping is bothering me. I've had mixed responses to...sorry, for extrajudicial processes. I didn't understand the point you made about your discussions with police officers. Are they saying they can do it, or are they saying it's going to be even more difficult for them to be able to do that?

[Prof. Susan Reid]

They agree with the proposed amendment to be able to keep track of records. The officers welcome the opportunity to keep track of them. For example, if a young person received a caution in New Brunswick, in Saint John, and then moved to Fredericton, they would be able say, “Okay, you've already had a caution.”

My comment is that this is pre-conviction, and the whole purpose of an extrajudicial sanction is to do something outside of the system. The title of the report I wrote for the Department of Public Safety in New Brunswick is called “125 Warnings”. It comes from a comment by probation officers that if it's the right solution for the young person for a minor offence, and taking Johnny back to his home or giving him a warning is the best solution, it doesn't matter if it happens once or 125 times.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

I have to interrupt you there.

Members, you'll have noticed the bells are ringing, which means we have votes in approximately half an hour. I need to seek consent to continue with the questions for another 10 or 15 minutes.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Your time is up....

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, what are you proposing to do in the second hour?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Unfortunately, if we're going to votes, unless we get consent to continue to sit after 5:30, we're done.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Will we come back after the votes?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Yes, we will come back after the votes and we can decide what to do at that time.

Mr. Woodworth, you have seven minutes.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses. In a system like ours it isn't necessary that we agree on everything, but it is necessary that we listen to each other, and I'm grateful that all of you are here to give your evidence.

I want to begin by saying, Mr. Wamback, that you apologized for being a bit emotional, and of course that's a totally unnecessary apology. In fact, I take the emotion that you feel after 11 years of what I imagine must be a bit of a frustrating observation of this problem to be proof of the urgency, proof of the need to do something different, and we need to do something different immediately. So not only do I not require an apology, but I thank you for that.

I also want to say that I believe you are completely right in saying that the focus ought to be on violent repeat offenders. Indeed, that's what this Bill C-4 is intended to deal with--violent repeat offenders. It's very targeted and focused on that.

I want to reassure you that whatever the faults of the statistics are--and I don't want to try to disagree with you about your concerns regarding the statistics--the statistic I have is that in 2009, and this is from the enhanced universal crime report survey--47,271 youth were accused of violent crime. Whether that's going up or down is completely irrelevant to me. That number is too high, and it's further evidence of the need to act immediately.

I'm guessing, but I'll just ask you to confirm something for me. Am I right in saying that your 11 years of experience and observation on this probably suggest to you that things are getting worse, not better?

[Joseph Wamback]

Let me give you a small anecdotal answer. When my son was almost murdered almost 12 years ago, he made national headlines. He was in every paper across this country. They made a movie about the assault and the rehabilitation of my son. Today, young people are being kicked to death and being stabbed on virtually a daily basis, and it doesn't even make the back page of our newspaper. To me, that means we're becoming desensitized, and it's happening so often that people don't care anymore. The only people who care are people like Mr. Penner and families who are involved in it, who are dragged into this system.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

What that means to me as a legislator is that this is an urgent problem that can't wait and that we need to take action. Something like Bill C-4, which is targeted at violent repeat offenders, is a highly necessary step, even if it's not the whole way.

If I may, Ms. Reid, I'd like to address some questions to you. You may surmise from my comments that I probably don't find myself in agreement with everything you've said. I hope you won't mind if I'm a bit probing, because I'd like to understand the extent of your knowledge on this.

Were you aware that in 2009 there were 47,271 Canadian youth accused of violent crime?

[Prof. Susan Reid]

Absolutely I was.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

You were aware of that, okay.

I was intrigued by your use of the phrase “evidence-based decision-making”, or something equivalent. You'll forgive me, but I have to say that when I hear that phrase, I usually find out it means not that there isn't evidence but that the evidence that exists just isn't acceptable to the person who used that phrase. So I want to ask you, are you familiar with the Nunn commission?

[Prof. Susan Reid]

Absolutely.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

All right. So you're aware, of course, that Commissioner Nunn heard evidence on this subject?

[Prof. Susan Reid]

I'm talking about evidence-based practice, but yes, I am.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Well, I'm talking about evidence-based recommendations and evidence-based legislation. I'm told that Justice Nunn heard from 47 witnesses in coming to his recommendations. Were you aware of that?

[Prof. Susan Reid]

Absolutely.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

We also had evidence the other day, by the way, from the reeve of a rural municipality in Saskatchewan who said that the evidence his council has gathered includes, for example, the observation that there is a hesitance to place custodial sentences upon young repeat offenders. Are you aware of evidence like that from Canadians across the country?

[Prof. Susan Reid]

Am I aware that there's a hesitancy?

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I mean a hesitance by courts to place custodial sentences upon repeat young offenders. Are you aware that Canadians across the country are accumulating evidence of such observations?

[Prof. Susan Reid]

I'm not sure that kind of a comment is what I would call evidence.