Continuing my reading of the document from the Barreau:
[Translation] In other words, we would actually be afraid that this law will not achieve the objective ascribed to it, while there is a real risk that it will have the opposite effect. Considering the impact of this legislative proposal, it would have been desirable to have a major public debate, one that would allow everyone involved in all aspects of the judicial process and social intervention to be consulted. That kind of consultation would produce a broad consensus concerning the best known methods of: (1) reducing the incidence of crime ...
I stress this because that is the objective of everyone in this room. Continuing:
[Translation] ... (2) responding appropriately to persons who have committed criminal offences, ...
We do all want to be fair, and myself, I do not want someone who has committed a heinous crime to get away with a slap on the wrist, just as I do not want someone who has committed a summary conviction offence to be imprisoned for two years and for the effect to be simply that they become more deeply involved in crime. Reading on:
[Translation] ... while targeting the most effective methods to promote denunciation, deterrence and rehabilitation of offenders, and (3) identifying and remedying weaknesses in relation to reintegration.
Those should always be our three objectives when we consider legislation like the legislation affected by Bill C-10. They go on to say:
[Translation] Bill C-10 comes at a time when the data provided by Statistics Canada show that crime is declining in Canada; in 2011, the crime rate in Canada was at its lowest point since 1973. Violent crime is also declining, year over year, to a lesser extent.
With apologies to my Conservative colleagues who do not take these statistics seriously or who think the figures are not accurate. Reading on:
[Translation] It must be noted that while the national crime rate has been declining constantly for 20 years, and today is at its lowest point since 1973, this is largely a result of the existing sentencing system, which seeks a balance between denunciation, deterrence and rehabilitation of offenders. Proportionality and individualization of sentences are fundamental values.
And that kid of decline does not just happen by itself. Obviously, it is caused by something. When I was studying law, denunciation, deterrence and rehabilitation were always the three concepts we were told about. For any crime committed, there is denunciation, there is deterrence and there is rehabilitation of offenders. And proportionality and individualization of the sentence are fundamental values. I think that out of the whole of the Barreau's brief, those are some of the most important sentences to remember. Sometimes, I get the impression that we have forgotten these extremely important concepts. They also say that [Translation] "numerous studies show that imprisonment does not reduce the incidence of crime".
That does not mean that there should be no imprisonment. I do not want to be quoted as saying I am opposed to imprisonment. I simply think that imprisonment must be justified. My career was in labour law, and when someone was dismissed, I always told the employers that it was the equivalent of the death penalty. So what the person was accused of doing had to be punished by a penalty that was proportionate to what they had done, and the person's record had to be taken into account.
The same is true in criminal law. The same concepts apply: an individual who is guilty of wrongdoing, of a crime, has to be punished on the basis of that crime. Do we need to apply deterrent effects to try to prevent it from happening again? Can the person be rehabilitated? I recall a case going back to the beginning of my career, when I did a little criminal law. It was a young person. Both the representatives of the Crown and myself agreed that if the Criminal Code were applied strictly, we would be sending that young person straight down the path of crime. The judge, the representatives of the Crown and myself therefore took steps to adapt the situation to the individual whose fate was in our hands. When it comes to minimum sentences, the problem is that everybody is treated the same way, without consideration of any factor that might be favourable just as well as unfavourable. It cuts both ways. If two people who have committed the same act appear before a judge, but one of them has committed it six times and the other only once, there has to be some logic applied.
The brief of the Barreau du Québec also says:
[Translation] Numerous studies show that imprisonment does not reduce the incidence of crime. Public Safety Canada has released the results of a study on the impact of imprisonment on recidivism by offenders who serve their sentence in prison. The conclusions are as follows: 1. For most offenders, prisons do not reduce recidivism. To argue for expanding the use of imprisonment in order to deter criminal behaviour is without empirical support. The use of imprisonment may be reserved for purposes of retribution and the selective incapacitation of society's highest risk offenders. 2. The cost implications of imprisonment need to be weighed against more cost efficient ways of decreasing offender recidivism and the responsible use of public funds. For example, even small increases in the use of incarceration can drain resources from other important public areas such as health and education. 3. Evidence from other sources suggests more effective alternatives to reducing recidivism than imprisonment. Offender treatment programs have been more effective in reducing criminal behaviour than increasing the punishment for criminal acts. More and longer minimum sentences are the figurehead of Bill C-10. The Barreau would note the glaring disparity between real needs in terms of penalizing offenders and preventing crime and recidivism and the solutions in these regards proposed by the government. Moreover, and having regard to the inevitable and exorbitant costs that implementing these more coercive measures will generate, victims of crime are again being ignored.
This is something that has really troubled me throughout the analysis of Bill C-10, whether on second reading or now here in committee. My Conservative colleagues talk a lot, and rightly so, about victims. However, I see nothing in this bill other than the possibility of having a little more impact and visibility when it comes time to consider the criminal's sentence. That is all I see.
Is this bill going to solve the problems for victims? I have had an opportunity to speak with some of the victims who testified before the committee.
When I was in practice, people who had been fired came to my office. When they said how they wanted to get very large amounts of money, I always told them that no amount of money would ever satisfy them or make up for what they had been through. That is true when it comes to victims, and they agree with me. There will never be a sentence that will satisfy someone, particularly in the cases we have heard, where heinous crimes have been committed.
Do we want a sentence to be imposed in order to provide personal satisfaction for someone else? Do we want to do it so that society will say that the offender is a disgusting person? Will we want society to hit them over the head and damn the consequences, as long as society feels better? I think we have to get past that way of looking at things.
It is all very well to look tough. It is all very well to look as if you care about civil society and to say that things will be safer because we are getting tough with criminals. But if what we are doing with our criminals does not solve the crime problem, society is not going to come out of this situation looking any better.
I encourage you to read the brief of the Barreau du Québec again. In the section [Translation] "Principles of justice in issue", it says, concerning minimum sentences and judicial discretion:
[Translation] Section 718.1 of the Criminal Code specifically states that it is a fundamental principle that a sentence must be proportionate to the gravity of the offence and the degree of responsibility of the offender.
This is the basic premise when it comes to sentencing. It could not be clearer.
The Barreau du Québec also says in its brief:
[Translation] On that point, judicial discretion alone provides the means for complying with and giving full effect to the principle of proportionality and individualization of the sentence, and ultimately to criminal justice in general. Although it is essential that offenders be accountable for their acts, judicial discretion alone provides the means for weighing the various principles of sentencing, and thus imposing a fair penalty that takes into account all the circumstances and the offender's real degree of responsibility.
At one time, during a television broadcast, I had an opportunity to debate Senator Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu. His answer to a question put to him made it clear that it was all based on the fact that the government does not trust the judiciary. And yet, as even the people on the Supreme Court said, it is important that the judge, who is not on the side of either party, and who hears the facts of the case, who hears the defence and the Crown, be allowed to continue to enjoy the advantage of being a trial judge, with the power to use all of the options available to them.
I could talk about this at great length. I simply want to remind this committee that it seems to me that it would have been our role as legislators to focus our attention to the documents provided by the government, to hear all these speeches and to see all these red lights warning us that the stated goals will not be achieved in any way with what has been put on the table by the Conservative government. With the costs associated with this, we are creating the same system the Americans are trying to get away from, when they are no longer even able to pay for it and they are up to their necks in debt. Consider, for example, the women's prison population. These women who are in detention centres already do not have a lot of room. Are we going to devote all our time to building prisons, knowing full well that this will not solve the problems? I have a bit of a problem with this.
I am horrified to think that someday we might be saying we told them so. Unfortunately, I have the impression that this is in fact what is going to happen when it comes to this bill.
This is not a matter of being soft. It is understanding how the system works and, as the people from the Barreau said, foreseeing the possibility that people will plead guilty to offences when they should not. No one thought about that. There will be cases for which there should be a trial, but people will prefer to plead guilty to a lesser offence rather than end up with some of the charges that will be laid against them that will mean minimum sentences. I cannot call that a system where everyone has the right to a trial, to the presumption of innocence. It is not a fair system where all of the factors are heard before rendering a verdict and passing sentence.
I know that my colleagues also have things to say on the subject, so I will say no more for the moment.