Justice Committee on June 21st, 2011

[Anouk Desaulniers, Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice]

As the minister mentioned earlier, Bill C-2 would allow the joint hearing of related motions presented in separate trials. When some of these separate trials are held in different jurisdictions, the chief judge appointing a case management judge to this joint hearing would also need to identify in which jurisdiction the joint hearing would take place. It's in that context and that context only that, for the single purpose of holding a joint hearing, a trial may be held in part in another jurisdiction.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

My final question--

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Time is up.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

--is not going to be asked.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Mr. Stewart.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's a great honour to serve on this committee.

I thank the minister for taking his time and giving a little extra time.

Because I'm new to this, I did call the B.C. Attorney General's Office yesterday just to see what their perspective was, and they were indeed in favour of this.

I do have a few questions. The way this has been framed, it deals with organized crime or domestic terror cases, but I'm wondering about how this would apply to more domestic cases, such as the riots we've seen in Toronto or in Vancouver. As we know from the news this morning, in Toronto there were 1,100 people initially charged, and now there are only 24, so most of those charges have been dropped. In Vancouver we've had 117 people charged and there are many more charges possibly coming.

I'm just wondering how this mega-trial bill would apply to something like that, which is not a domestic terrorism or organized crime case.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I don't presuppose how any case not yet before the courts will be treated, but in any criminal proceeding, it would fall to the defence lawyers, the crown, the crown attorney, or the judge himself or herself to make that application if they deemed that in a case before them it was appropriate to have the provisions of this bill kick in. So it will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I'm concerned, because I'm wondering about the treatment of youth under this act. We have specific provisions for protecting youth offenders or young offenders that kind of give them a little extra protection under the law. I'm just wondering whether this is in some way an end-run around the Young Offenders Act or whether youth will be provided the same protections that they are currently.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

There's no question about that. They are protected under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, and all of those provisions will continue.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

But will the case management judge give special considerations to youth offenders, or is that not something that's been kind of considered in the construction of this act?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I would ask Ms. Kane for that. It seems to me that it would make no difference whatsoever insofar as the act still applies.

[Catherine Kane, Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice]

Exactly.

The case management judge will help control the process within all the parameters of the Youth Criminal Justice Act, if it's a trial of young persons, and all the same protections would apply. This is a procedural mechanism to control the management of the trial only, not to impact on any of the rights otherwise available. Everything still applies, as it would if it had not been designated a case that required the case management judges.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I do notice under proposed section 551.3 that the case management judge has considerable powers. He or she has the powers to assist and encourage, but there are also powers to establish and to supersede trial judges. I'm wondering, if there's a conflict between the case management judge and the trial judge in youth offender cases, what the outcome of those might be, and whether that was specifically considered in the construction of this act.

[Catherine Kane]

There wouldn't be a conflict, but my colleague is better placed to perhaps go through the powers of the case management judge as opposed to the trial judge, because that may be of more assistance to you.

[Anouk Desaulniers]

The case management judge steps in at the preliminary phase of the trial, where the trial judge, per se, has not yet stepped in. If this case is proceeding before a youth court, of course this case management judge would need to come from that court as well. The case would only involve young offenders and it would not involve any adults, as was pointed out recently in 2009 by the Supreme Court of Canada. You can't have a joint trial with an adult and a young offender.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

But can you have cases managed by one judge that are both youth offenders, so you could have youth and adults included in this management system?

[Anouk Desaulniers]

No, you couldn't. The YCJA clearly states that young offenders must be treated in a separate system, and that was reinforced again in 2009, when the Supreme Court of Canada stated that you can't join on a preferred indictment young offenders and adults. Young offenders have the right to be treated in a separate system, and that will remain.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

So in the case of the G-20 or the Vancouver riots, you might actually have two mega-trials on the same issue. Might we have a youth one that's coordinated by one case management judge and an adult one that's coordinated by another case management judge?

[Anouk Desaulniers]

I'm not aware of the details of the proceedings in Toronto. Of course my main point is that, indeed, the current difference between the adult system and the young offender system will remain.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Right. And was this something that was considered—

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Time is up.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Mr. Minister, I tried to save you the wrath of the whip a few minutes ago, but we're in your hands.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes. If there's one more question from the opposition or the government side, I don't mind taking that.

I'm in your hands, Mr. Chairman, but you're right, I have to be back for ten o'clock.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Okay. It goes back to the Conservative side now by the rules here.

Mr. Rathgeber.