Evidence of meeting #27 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was extraterritorial.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Prober, I listened to you talk about the MacIntosh case.
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President and Co-Founder, Beyond Borders ECPAT Canada
There's an appeal to the Supreme Court. I should be clear about that. So any inquiry would be if it goes to the Supreme Court. After that.... If it doesn't, hopefully then it would carry on.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Would this bill have changed anything with respect to that case?
11:55 a.m.
President and Co-Founder, Beyond Borders ECPAT Canada
No. The only reason I'm really raising this case is in regard to the systems that have to be in place if you're going to do extraterritorial, if you're going to have an extraterritorial law and make it effective. Everybody has to be up to speed. Everybody has to be trained. I might turn this over to our legal counsel to talk about....
But generally that's why I'm raising this. It's great that we do it, but then let's look at a situation where things fall apart. Or there's the other case, the case of Wrenshall. He was an individual who unfortunately set up a brothel in Bangkok. That would be an instance where an individual would be held accountable for human trafficking in Bangkok and couldn't be. He was held accountable by the United States; they caught him in England and brought him back on conspiracy charges because he was actually offering the boys to American citizens. So there wasn't anything there for him at the time.
But I don't know if Mark wants to add anything.
11:55 a.m.
Dr. Mark Erik Hecht Senior Legal Counsel, Beyond Borders ECPAT Canada
I will just add that with the work Beyond Borders does, we're always very cautious not to promote any kind of amendment to legislation that would be really operating in a vacuum. So with respect to the other times we've presented in front of committees, what we always tried to raise was the fact that there has to be a more integrated kind of approach to this. It's very good if we get the legislation in. That's definitely very important and necessary. But we also have to ensure that whatever we do on the criminal side works closely with the other protocols in place, as, for example, immigration, which was raised, but also specifically with the MacIntosh case, the whole issue of the passport offices and the role they play in helping enforce extraterritorial legislation.
That's why we always try to bring it up, so people are aware that it's not only the work that's being done in this committee, but the effect the work in this committee has on work going on in other areas of the federal government.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Ms. Prober, you referenced another case with respect to someone who set up a brothel and was ultimately pursued in the United States.
That leads me to my next question. In terms of particular cases that we could point to, where there is a gap in our legislation that this addresses, are there particular cases that this addresses? Or is this a problem that is pervasive and can't be reduced down to individual cases that we're dealing with?
I pose that question for you, but I expect there may be others on the panel who would like to address that as well.
11:55 a.m.
President and Co-Founder, Beyond Borders ECPAT Canada
When you look at the issue of child sex trafficking, it is generally the local or national children in Canada who are trafficked. Certainly that is a reality. In fact, I don't think we have before the courts any cases involving trafficking of children that are not, at the moment, involving local children, not children brought into Canada. Generally, if you look at sex trafficking, the use of children for profit, it's a local phenomenon.
You actually mentioned the United States. Sometimes I worry about the United States getting too much of a pat on the back. In actual fact, the money from The Body Shop in the United States with our American ECPAT group went to bringing in legislation so that children in prostitution are not arrested. It may well be that the United States has looked very closely and done some good work about trafficking foreigners into the United States, but in terms of children in the United States, they are way behind the eight ball, and they still arrest them in many states.
Back to your question, is this going to address a phenomenon or is a phenomenon out there, as I think you are asking? One of the things—
Noon
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
I'm asking more whether there are specific cases where prosecutions have failed because we don't have this bill. That's where I'm going.
Noon
President and Co-Founder, Beyond Borders ECPAT Canada
I think if you look at the polygamists in B.C., we know full well that the polygamists in B.C., the FLDS, were going into the United States and bringing back and forth child brides. That would certainly be an incidence where criminal activity was going on and there was no legislation to prevent it.
March 15th, 2012 / noon
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
We know right now of cases that are sitting there. We know Canadians right now who are doing exactly that. They have brothels. We have a man who set up a brothel in Haiti. Publicly I hate to say too much because we're just waiting for this bill to get through. His youngest victim is four years old. Not only that, he comes back to Canada and he continues what he does to Canadian children. It's a matter of putting as many tools in place for police officers so they can grab these cases.
If you look at our history right now, we had Bill C-49, our first trafficking bill, which had royal assent in 2006. That's a brand-new law. Then my bill went through, Bill C-268, mandatory minimums, and now we're getting more tools for them. If you look at the grid, we used to have no trafficking cases. To date we have 19 human trafficking cases in Canada with specific charges related to Bill C-268, and we have 55 human trafficking cases now before the courts that are related to other laws that we have here in Canada. Of the 19 cases or 55 cases, what I am trying to get across is we used to have none. Now, suddenly because we have put those laws in place, they are catching these people, and with Bill C-310.... I know right now of one case extremely close to the Hill that we've been looking at for some time.... We can't touch him unless he goes through the States, and he doesn't.
Noon
Program Director, Front Line, Walk With Me
There's one area that has been overlooked, which I haven't mentioned yet.
There hasn't been any prosecution about this type of trafficking. That's simply because there is nothing for the prosecutor to even do any cases on. There's one thing that's very well-known and that has been happening for some years now and is becoming worse by the month. Our Canadian girls are being lured by Canadian traffickers to Las Vegas, Atlantic City, Miami. Girls are leaving Canada to find their dream boyfriend in Las Vegas. The situation is so bad down there that the Las Vegas police have a unit called “PIMP task force”. They actually have a database on Canadian traffickers. And nobody can touch them.
Thank you.
Noon
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
Joy, you've done great work on this. I'm proud to be one of your many seconders of this legislation.
The bill is going to codify Canada's ability to prosecute TIP offences committed by Canadian citizens and permanent residents in all cases. Do you think it's still going to be necessary to provide a real and substantial link when a particular prosecution is undertaken under this new legislation?
Noon
Conservative
Noon
Conservative
Noon
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
A link to Canada is absolutely necessary, and just by virtue of being a Canadian citizen you are linked.
We're doing many good things, as Timea said, such as the national action plan that is being put in place right now to help victims of crime. But this particular bill will surely tighten up many things that are happening. Many organized crime organizations are taking care of business by trying to set up business outside our shores.
I don't think that link will be very hard to find. If you're a permanent resident or a Canadian citizen, you're the link.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
I was looking at some of the proposed amendments that we have here. In the text itself you give a list of your version: “used or threatened to use violence; ...used or threatened to use force; ...used or threatened another form of coercion”, etc.
I know it's not an exhaustive list. Is there a reason why, in including the amendments, you've chosen those particular words, or are there other descriptors?
To anybody else in the panel, are there any other descriptors that you think we should be looking at adding to make sure this covers off every possibility?
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
These are the words in standard use in other countries. But even above that, our big problem here in Canada is that often the perpetrators get off because it isn't spelled out. This is like a tool, a help for the court system, to clarify exactly what they're talking about.
Right now in Canada, human trafficking has been far below the public radar screen. Police officers had to be trained in what human trafficking was; judges had to be informed of what the laws were. They didn't recognize human trafficking for what it was. That's why I was very specific in extending the language. I heard over and over again from police officers, from crowns, and from victims that the definition of “exploitation” was not adequate. So I put it in there.
