Justice Committee on May 17th, 2012

[Chief Rodney B. Freeman]

I can tell you that I've been part of the justice system for 34 years. My career is 34 years, and I have great faith in the system. I've seen it work. I've seen it fail. It's not a perfect system, but none are.

The sense I am getting, though, from speaking to many people in my community of Woodstock—and I think this is fairly reflective of opinions across the country—is that people are having some doubts about the criminal justice system and its effectiveness, perhaps because of a lack of consistency or legal decisions that regular people can't seem to wrap their minds around.

I'll kind of give you a political answer. As a member of the system, I believe in it. I have faith in it. I have worked in it for a long time, but I sense that society is having some lingering doubts, and they need the reassurance that we are striving to make the criminal justice system the best that we possibly can.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Surprenant, I know you have also lived through an abominable situation. It is important to step back a bit and consider it as a whole when we apply the Criminal Code.

Do you think that a minimum sentence of five years will have a marked impact, given that it has already been tried elsewhere? Do you think this could cause more repeat offences? Is there something in the Criminal Code we could apply?

I would like to hear your point of view on that.

[Michel Surprenant]

I fully disagree with what you said. In a debate, at a given moment…

I was speaking with Michel Dunn, who killed his associate. He was sentenced to 25 years in prison, where he did 17 years. He admitted that it took seven years before he admitted his crime.

A minimum length of detention is needed to accept the crime that has been committed.

You must also understand something. When a child is kidnapped, whether the child dies or not, that child's life is changed forever. It has been proven that a sexual predator cannot be cured. A minimum of five years, during which time he will be removed from the population, is a minimum to ensure safety.

It is important to understand that, for sexual predators who know they will be released, you are keeping that possibility of reoffending alive in their mind, which means that there will be other victims.

On behalf of future victims, can you take responsibility for releasing these people?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Therefore, the longer the incarceration is, the more protected you'll feel.

[Michel Surprenant]

We are talking about the safety of our children.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I understand your situation, and we know your story.

When we apply the Criminal Code, we cannot do so for one individual and one situation; we need to think about prevention. Do we need to operate in absolutes? Could we not have situations where this might create other kinds of problems? Perhaps these people could be rehabilitated.

In your opinion, there is no possibility: these people must stay in prison.

[Michel Surprenant]

It has been proven that sexual predators cannot be cured. As soon as they are released, their only concern will be to find a new victim to satisfy their fantasies.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Am I to understand…

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Ms. Findlay.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to talk to you, Mrs. Dunahee. My name is Kerry-Lynne Findlay. I am a member of Parliament from British Columbia, and I well remember that fateful day when your son Michael was taken and we all became aware.

I grew up on Vancouver Island, so I know the park you were at that day very well, and I visualized, now as the mother of four, but at the time with two young children.... There were many of us who were identifying with your pain at that time, and I really applaud you for what you've been trying to do for missing children's rights.

Our Conservative government continues to try to address the issue of missing children through a number of initiatives and that includes the RCMP's Canadian Police Centre for Missing and Exploited Children. We have also expressed our support via a website called missingkids.ca, recently launched by the Canadian Centre for Child Protection.

Nevertheless, of course we all know and the testimony of Chief Freeman here only underscores that there is so much more we could do for victims and victims of kidnapping, in particular and of course, for our most vulnerable members of society—our children.

Could you please tell our committee today how, in your opinion, Bill C-299, introduced by Mr. Wilks—also a B.C. resident—provides us with an opportunity to do that?

[Crystal Dunahee]

From what I'm reading and hearing, it sounds as if there is nothing in place at present for a minimum timeline. In Tori's case, if they had been able to stop them before they hit the 401.... Six months is nothing compared to the trauma they instilled in that child in the timeline they had. Because at her age, it would have stayed with her indefinitely; she would have been remembering that constantly.

I don't know if a minimum of five years is enough time, but it's a start. I believe we need to have something in place to get the message across that we will not stand for people taking our children, whether we know them or not. It's deplorable.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

There I'm sure, as are the other witnesses here today, that although it wasn't in the original bill, the government intends to introduce an amendment to make it very clear that we're just talking about strangers who kidnap our children. This minimum would apply to them.

Do you have any other comment on that or even on your thoughts or your feelings on our children being vulnerable to strangers taking them when they're so little?

[Crystal Dunahee]

Having strangers taking our children is not something that I would like to impose on anybody, as I'm still living that. Our family is still living that nightmare. We continue to do so. Who knows when it's going to end?

So having five years is—

I'm sorry.

Putting five years I think is just.... I don't know how to express that.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

I really appreciate what it means for you to be here today. I really appreciate your courage, and I just want to say that I'm sure everyone here agrees with me as we deal with this very difficult issue. I want to thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Mr. Surprenant would like to respond.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

All right.

Monsieur Surprenant?

[Michel Surprenant]

I heard what you said, and I want to clarify something. Sexual predators do not use firearms, they use ruses. Sexual predators will not commit violent offences during the kidnapping as such. You must also understand that these are life sentences that sexual predators are imposing when they kidnap or assault a child. When you kidnap a child, you are destroying the child's life. How will the child react? How will the child recover from that experience? That is the whole issue. Regardless, it certainly is a life sentence.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Thank you.

Mr. Côté.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Dunahee, I'm Raymond Côté, and I'm the member for Beauport—Limoilou. I would like to thank you immensely for coming and testifying before our committee.

I'm not a jurist, and I have no legal training. However, like you, I have been involved in various organizations, including in the school network. I was the chair of the parents' committee of the Commission scolaire de la Capitale for two years. You said that you have no legal knowledge. That reminded me that several parents I helped as chair were intimidated to represent their school on a body like a school board. So I pay tribute to your presence. Please don't be intimidated by our committee. No, you are really in your element here.

The Criminal Code is a whole, it's an important tool for our justice system. My concern doesn't involve just the section of the act but everything surrounding it, meaning, victim support and all the consequences of crimes.

Given your role as the president of Child Find British Columbia and as a mother who went through this, what can you tell us about the needs of people like you who go through the very trying experience of a kidnapped child? What do you need in the longer term? Tell us about the quality of services and support that are available.

[Crystal Dunahee]

We did draw on victim services for the emotional support that we needed at the time. Becoming involved with Child Find B.C. brought more support to us, because that wasn't readily available. Of course, over the years, with all the different organizations that have grown because of the abduction of our children, the resources are now there and available.

Having some sort of limit within the Criminal Code gives us that much more of a secure feeling that those criminals are going to be off the street and not released in six months with a rap on the wrist—“don't touch our children”.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

That's very good. Thank you very much, Ms. Dunahee.

I would like to ask a question of all the witnesses. With respect to the bill as presented, we are concerned about its potential unpleasant or unintended consequences. We cannot ignore it, which is why I'm mentioning it. Justice Major gave us his testimony earlier in the week, and he confirmed this. The Criminal Code forms a whole. When you fiddle with one section in particular, like my colleague David Wilks is trying to do here, there are consequences. The goal is entirely respectable, but sometimes there can be unintended consequences.

One thing troubled us quite a lot. In almost all reported kidnapping cases, the sentences were eight to 10 years on average, even more. In the Gillen case, in British Columbia, the woman who kidnapped a two-week-old baby received life in prison.

You might think that this works. But if we impose a minimum five-year sentence, we're afraid that this will send the message to the judicial system that a five-year sentence could be an acceptable punishment for this crime, while it might be better to impose a harsher sentence.

In addition, it could lead prosecutors to consider other avenues, to prevent the accused from not getting a lesser sentence than what we might want.

Chief Freeman, what do you think of our concern?

[Chief Rodney B. Freeman]

I'd be pleased to, and thank you very much for the opportunity.

In speaking with Mr. Wilks, we see this as just a starting point. In some of the other cases you may have reviewed with the penalties of eight years and so on up to life, those sentences may have included other offences over and above the kidnapping, because as was explained to this committee, so often that kidnapping is for the purpose of sexual assault, rape, or murder.

When I was contacted, I looked at the section of the code and I looked at it in just the perspective of that charge alone—kidnapping alone—and quite frankly I was shocked that there was no established minimum. There was no established minimum sentence. In speaking with Mr. Wilks, I expressed that, and we determined that five years was a start.

As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing on this earth more valuable than a child's precious life.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Thank you, our time is up.

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you to all the witnesses who came today.

I was a criminal lawyer for a period of time. That doesn't mean I was a criminal and a lawyer, it means I defended criminals. I stopped after a period of time, because frankly, I couldn't deal with this type of business anymore, after dealing with a couple of cases.

Now I do understand as well, based on my experience, that pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated. That is my information. That is my evidence, and consistently I heard Mr. Surprenant say that.

Is that your understanding, Mr. Freeman, as well?

[Chief Rodney B. Freeman]

It is.