Justice Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Thank you.

Mr. Jacob.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for joining us today, Mr. Minister.

Do you think there is the potential, under Bill C-37, for offenders to be imprisoned because they are unable to pay the victim surcharge and also unable to settle it through a fine option program?

If so, do you see any problems with that? A few minutes ago, you said that it would be applied systematically.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It would be applied not just systematically, but consistently across the country. Again, you will find in seven of the ten provinces a fine option program for people who for whatever reason cannot, or are unwilling to, pay the fine or the surcharge. Where there is no fine option program, you would have to look at each individual province or jurisdiction to see how they treat these. What very often happens is that, among them, they will determine a payment plan for the individual. If there are no payments, the individual might, for instance, find that his or her licence has been suspended. Again, the administration of that is up to each province, but what we have, and what we will have after this bill is passed, is consistency.

With respect to the fine, you quite correctly pointed out that if a fine is imposed on an individual, there would now be a victim surcharge if the individual didn't pay the fine. There is that possibility the individual could end up in jail if he or she ignored the penalty. People generally pay the fine so they can avoid the jail time. That is often part of either the plea arrangement or the penalty imposed by the judge. What happens after that is administered by the provinces. You may find very interesting what a number of the provinces are doing in this area.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Let us talk about the provinces. If offenders convicted under the Criminal Code can only participate in those programs in certain provinces, what measures can be taken to ensure that Bill C-37 does not have a disproportionate impact depending upon where an offender lives?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I have actually been quite impressed, Monsieur Jacob, over the years with respect to what provinces do in this area. We talk quite a bit, as you know, at the federal level about what we are doing for victims, but we're not the only ones. I've been impressed by what non-governmental organizations and groups, individuals, provinces, and municipalities are doing. That's one of the things I have found over the years when I've travelled across this country. I have been quite impressed by the different services that are provided to victims.

I've been of the opinion, and we state that very clearly, that we have to do more. I think the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime will say that. It is an ongoing project and commitment priority of the government to continue to do this. Again, what happens at the provincial level is not all the same— appreciate that—nor is the fine option program the same, as we've already indicated. That being said, there are programs in place to assist victims. Quite frankly, I don't know of any jurisdiction that doesn't have some type of program which in one way or another assists victims. We can all say that they should be doing more, but I know of no jurisdiction in this country that doesn't in some way extend a hand to victims, and on that we are all agreed. I'm always agreed with my provincial and territorial counterparts that we make that a priority and continue to do more for victims who are on the right track.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

If there is a large increase in the number of people applying for fine option programs, could you tell me whether the infrastructure is or will be in place to handle applications, to supervise work and to account for the work credits?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Again, in terms of what will take place with the fine option program if an individual gets a summary conviction offence and receives a $100 surcharge, and whether this will hugely tax the fine option programs of the provinces, my guess is it probably won't. I think most people will come up with the $100 or $200 if they have committed an indictable offence.

As well—and you may have appeared in court yourself, Mr. Jacob, to know this—when individuals are given a fine, they usually scramble. They want to pay that fine because the fine is an alternative to incarceration. For the most part people would prefer to pay a fine. This fine will include the victim surcharge, but that's what they would prefer. I don't see this overwhelming the fine option programs at the provincial level. Again, my belief is that my provincial and territorial counterparts will be pleased that there is now some consistency across the country. And every cent from this surcharge will go into provincial and territorial funding programs, so they'll be quite pleased.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Thank you.

Mr. Albas.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm very happy to be here today.

Minister, thank you to you and your staff for visiting us today.

I'd like to follow up on some of the things that Monsieur Jacob brought up.

Under the current version of section 736 of the code, offenders who are required to pay a fine may discharge the fine in whole or in part by earning credits for work performed under a program set up for that purpose. According to the current wording of subsection 737(10) of the code, this fine option program may not be used for a victim surcharge. Bill C-37 would make it possible for offenders to also discharge the victim surcharge through the fine option program, where the program is available and the offender qualifies for it.

How will the time required for the offender to work through the fine option program be determined? How will it be determined in order to equal the surcharge monetary penalty imposed?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'll ask Ms. Morency to answer that one for you, Mr. Albas.

[Carole Morency, Acting Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice]

If I understand the question correctly, I think the question is how the amount would work out into the amount of time taken to pay off the surcharge.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Yes.

[Carole Morency]

In each of the provinces, my understanding of the fine option program is basically they equate, often around the minimum wage, to the number of hours required to pay off that surcharge.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Okay, so the different provinces will have different approaches. Some might use a credit system. Some might use minimum wage. Is that correct?

[Carole Morency]

That's my understanding, yes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

What kind of activities might be entailed under this program?

[Carole Morency]

If you look at the different programs that exist in the provinces and territories, there are, as the minister has said, variations between them. I think some of the common features are they tend to be, for example, work in a volunteer sector so that it doesn't detract from employment opportunities for others. It's often, as I say, in the volunteer types of services in the community. Different provinces will have different types of services that can be identified. Once they get into the program, they'll be directed to that.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

If my understanding is correct, some would either pay the fine—of course, that would support victims through this proposal—or they would work the time off through volunteer activities, which would have benefit to the community in addition to that.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Exactly. That's a very good point. While there would be no money going directly into victim services, it would still send the message to the individual that there are some consequences for the activity that he or she got involved in, and the individual is contributing in some way to the society that ultimately has to pick up the tab for all this. I think it works on that level as well.

It's not directly going into the victims fund, but nonetheless it sends the message home to the individual that the individual has committed a serious act for which the individual has to do something to make some sort of recompense, whether that be through community work, as Ms. Morency pointed out, or the payment of a fine. Either way I think this is something that's constructive.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

My understanding would be that if they are doing something for the community, there's pride that goes along with that. There's also the direction, and the value to society, as you said.

Based on a more consistent approach to it, I'm sure the provinces would be happy to see that victim services would be funded with more consistency, would they not?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That is something they will certainly welcome. As I pointed out, all the money from this goes to the provinces and the priorities they set within the realm of helping victims. It will be applauded on that level. Again, for those who like to see more money go into programs administered by the provinces, it's consistent on that level as well. They will have more money to put toward assisting victims.

While everything we do doesn't get 100% support at every level, I'm quite confident this will be well received by my provincial and territorial counterparts. Again, we've had quite a few changes over the years in provincial attorneys general, but there has been a consistency there as well that they will like. I think it will work.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thank you, Minister. That pretty much answers all my questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Mr. Côté.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you for joining us today, Mr. Minister.

I listened to you carefully when you talked about the situation in New Brunswick. I found that very interesting, but there is something I would like to understand.

You mentioned that, in 99% of cases, no reason was provided for the waiver of the surcharge. Have those data enabled you to determine whether a fine was imposed? What was the proportion?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes, alone of the different provinces, New Brunswick seems to have all the information on this that's available to us. We've even given you a breakdown of when and where the surcharge exists under the Criminal Code, and overwhelmingly it is not applied to individuals convicted of an indictable offence. For the most part, when a fine is imposed in the province of New Brunswick, I believe that 75% of the time a surcharge is added, but in 25% of the cases one is not, even when a fine is being imposed. It varies between whether the individual is sentenced with a fine or imprisoned for an indictable offence.

It was very helpful to us, quite frankly, to have a look at what happens statistically in the province of New Brunswick. From what I've been told across the country, what happens there about the inconsistency of the victim surcharge is backed up anecdotally as well, so when we had a look at what took place in New Brunswick, very carefully obviously, we said it was consistent with everything that we heard across the country, and that's going to change with this law.