Justice Committee on Nov. 29th, 2012

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It's not really the Courts Administration Service. When there is a request for extradition, that is something different from deportation or some of the other incidences related to dealing with individuals who are charged. Extradition is contained within the department, and the budgetary provisions are already part of that.

The Courts Administration Service deals with coordination among a number of the superior courts—the Tax Court, the Supreme Court, the Federal Court. There is a service that assists judges of the courts.

That is a separate ask, and it's not attached to or part of what we incur as a department by way of the expenses related to extradition.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Thank you.

Mr. Goguen.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Minister, for appearing, and thanks to the able witnesses who accompany you.

You spoke earlier about the fight on organized crime. This committee recently tabled a report on the state of organized crime. As minister, you've passed probably more than 20 bills, the majority of which deal with organized crime in one fashion or another, and of course there is a cost attached to them.

Could you tell the committee about your successes, your achievements, in regard to the fight against organized crime, Minister?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

This is part of what it is we're doing. As I indicated in my opening remarks, or perhaps it was in response to the question of Madam Findlay, organized crime is involved with a lot of the illegal activity in this country. I gave the example of drugs, and very early in my term as justice minister, it was brought to my attention that that's who was doing it. One of the major components of Bill C-10 is dealing with those individuals who are in the business of trafficking, but it's not confined to that.

It was brought to my attention that there are sophisticated illegal operations involved with auto theft, shipping cars in and out of this country. I was told, and I believe, that the laws as they existed at that time did not cover that, just dealing with theft over or under $5,000, or if you break up a chop shop, the main offence may be possession of stolen property. Needless to say, if you break into a chop shop, you're going to have people say they don't actually possess these; they just do the public relations for the chop shop, so they don't possess.

I don't mean to be funny about it, but the laws weren't covering what actually takes place. If you had the public safety minister here, he would tell you that there were gaps in what Canada Border Service Agencies could do about intercepting containers with cars and car parts; they didn't have the authority to start opening these up to try to break up these chop shops. That was one bill that I think was particularly important in updating the Criminal Code to reflect what's going on. If you have these sophisticated operations, the laws should respond to them.

We made changes with respect to ID theft, as you know, and again, in my opinion, it's updating the Criminal Code to reflect what's actually happening out there.

We made changes, for instance, with respect to bail proceedings, individuals who have been charged and/or convicted of serious crimes involving guns, for instance, putting an onus on that individual to say why they should be back out on the street after they have been charged with another criminal offence. I had law enforcement agencies tell me that if you had somebody who has a record of a violent offence involving firearms, for example, and they're charged with another crime involving firearms, and if that individual is back in the neighbourhood in the next couple of hours, it sends out the wrong message to the neighbourhood; it sends the wrong message out to the victims and witnesses. They say, “What's going on here?” Again, it's for the protection of the individual. If the individual has a proclivity for firearms offences, that individual may be a danger to himself as well as to the public. We have been very focused on that, as you know.

Things such as drive-by shootings have all been connected to gang activity in our country. As you would know, and the members of the committee are aware, we've had many pieces of legislation—I think we've had over 20 pieces of legislation—and all of them are moving towards better protecting victims, cracking down on violent crime, going after organized crime, and, in come cases, updating the Criminal Code to reflect what's actually happening out there. It hasn't been easy, but I'm very pleased with the progress we're making these days.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I notice that you're also attacking white collar crime, trying to prevent investment fraud, to protect seniors from being defrauded of their hard-earned investments.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

This is a continuous thing, Mr. Chair. Yes, we did tighten up and increase the penalties with respect to white collar crime, but these scam artists are around all the time. They're continuously calling my and your constituents, or calling our houses, all with an idea to try to scam people out of their hard-earned money. Again, we all have a responsibility to help them.

You had a bill that dealt with elder abuse. This is a recognition of what sometimes takes place—people targeting individuals who they think might be vulnerable to their attacks. We've gotten after this on a number of different levels, and I'm very pleased with the legislation that we've been able to put before Parliament.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Thank you.

Madame Boivin.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I often say that justice is a poor relation when it comes to budgets—be it in the case of the federal government, of provincial or other governments. At the beginning of your presentation, you talked about law-and-order bills. I know about that. We have studied several such bills in this committee. Those kinds of issues require money.

The Police Officers Recruitment Fund was discussed. Earlier, I talked to you about the federal-provincial-territorial meeting. The provinces and territories said they think this program is important. Yet the federal government will cut it. Justice is not limited only to ongoing legal proceedings. Its goal is also to prevent the commission of crimes. I would like you to explain to me why this program is being cut. I think it's fairly important to have more police officers on the streets.

Do you think justice is something of a poor relation? Requests have been made regarding legal aid and first nations police services. Requests are being made at all levels, but you are being asked to make cuts. We see that small amounts are earmarked for some areas and slightly larger amounts for others. We may wonder how the department made its projections at the beginning of the year.

What does the Minister of Justice of Canada think about these budgets?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

We have a very important role to play in justice issues in this country. The RCMP and policing matters are within the purview, of course, of my colleague, the Minister of Public Safety, but one of the issues that I look at very carefully is the fact that for the most part the administration of justice is within provincial jurisdiction. I guess I'm one of those who, when the budget is presented, always takes note of the transfers to the provinces. Quite frankly, I'm pleased that there has been a 43% increase in transfers to the provinces.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Over the past few weeks, we have heard a great deal about the insufficient number of crown attorneys and judges. I do realize that the administration of justice comes under provincial jurisdiction. However, a number of federal laws increase the burden, thus impacting the day-to-day administration of justice. The budget requests come from your colleagues. They want to make sure some money is set aside. If that is not done, the system will eventually implode.

We are told that people living below the poverty line have absolutely no access to legal aid. That means they have no access to justice. There are desperate needs.

Are you speaking to the appropriate people to ensure that justice stops being the poor relation in your colleague Flaherty's budgets?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

How the provinces spend the money is within their purview. You mentioned crown attorneys; they're appointed by the provinces.

One of the things I guess we can all agree on is that the provinces have certainly had considerably more money transferred to them since this government was formed.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

So it's your statement that they have enough money to deal with all the new legislation that's been brought in by the government?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

We work with our provincial counterparts. Some of the legislation, quite frankly, is to help them and assist them. If you remember getting rid of the “two for one” credit, you will remember that every single provincial attorney general was in support of that. They told me that individuals who could benefit from not having their matter heard before the court, or who would delay putting a guilty plea or who wanted their matters extended, were costing, particularly the provinces, a great deal of money.

I remember the attorney general in British Columbia telling me that he heard of a case of an individual who didn't want to have a bail hearing because he was racking up “two for one” credits in there. I told him I had every sympathy for him; I understood what he was saying. There were places in Toronto where they were getting “three for one” credits.

So we came forward with that bill to help expedite.... But for the most part it was to assist our provincial counterparts who had the expense of dealing with and housing people in provincial detention centres. I was very pleased to bring that forward. It was lucky for me that I had so many provincial attorneys general who were supportive, and this would help them in the administration of justice.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

I have 30 seconds.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

We're out of time.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

We're not watching the same clock.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

I'm watching this clock and you're way past.

Thank you, Minister. I think we've used the allotted time, and Madame Boivin got a bonus.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Officials from the Department of Justice will continue to answer questions, and I thank them for that in advance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

We'll just take a short break as we change panels

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

I call the meeting back to order.

Mr. Cotler had to leave; he has another task to do. He may be back before we finish.

I want to thank the new panel, which includes two of the original people. Ms. Merriam and Mr. Schnob, thank you for being here. I'm sure all four of you know that some questions were left unanswered; Mr. Scott is probably going to look for an answer today.

We'll begin with Madame Boivin.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

I will yield the floor to my colleague Mr. Jacob, but I will ask a quick question first.

Department representatives promised to send us information about cuts to services within the Department of Justice. I wanted to make sure that you will send us that information. I am not asking you to give me all the answers this afternoon, as we would then not come out of this room for quite some time. However, I do want to make sure that we will be able to obtain on paper the information the minister mentioned—the 6.5% to

reduce most of it by attrition, but it's just to have an idea over a certain number of years. If we get that, I'm quite satisfied.

Now to Mr. Jacob.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank my dear colleague. I also want to thank our witnesses for joining us.

I will discuss Supplementary Estimates (B) 2012-2013. In the estimates, it is proposed that $1.8 million be added to the department as part of the funding to enhance activities related to the cessation and vacation of refugee status pursuant to the Protecting Canada's Immigration System Act. This is in vote 1.

Here is my first question. Can you tell us about the activities related to the cessation and vacation of refugee status and those related to removal? Second, what is the Department of Justice's role in terms of that? Will the department work with the Canada Border Services Agency and, if so, in what way? Finally, what will be the real impact of the Protecting Canada's Immigration System Act on the role of the Department of Justice?

[Bill Pentney]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the member for his questions.

The Department of Justice provides legal services to almost all federal departments and agencies. The Department of Justice's funds are used to support departments in their proceedings. So we anticipate needs related to legal advice in proceedings and, occasionally, support in potential litigations.

I will now answer the question about the fight against human smuggling. I'm sorry, but I don't know the French term. Part of this proposal concerns the broadening of the process. It provides for cancelling the refugee claim of a person convicted for taking part in human smuggling activities.

This is only a recognition of the broadening of a process and its application. We need more lawyers to support departments. That is all there is to it.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Okay. Thank you.

I believe you have not answered three questions?

The question is for all four of you—Ms. Morency, Ms. Merriam, Mr. Schnob, or Mr. Pentney, you may answer if you like as well.

[William F. Pentney]

Frankly, I don't think we have anything to add.