Justice Committee on Oct. 20th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

You have about 30 seconds.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Okay.

I have a very quick question for either you or Chief McFee. Both of you have made reference to providing civil remedies to victims of terror, which is a proposal in the bill that you support and that I would support.

Chief McFee, perhaps you can address my final question: would you support the listing mechanism in that legislation?

[Chief Dale McFee]

The simple answer is yes--to keep to the 30 seconds.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Thank you. That is the time.

Mr. Seeback.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

I'd like to go back to Mr. Westwick. First of all, it appears you didn't get to finish part of your opening statement. We have a little bit of time, and I'd be happy to allow you to do that.

[Vince Westwick]

Thank you very much.

I was going to point to a couple of other parts of the bill that we think are very important. There's the one the last questioner raised about the Justice for Victims of Terrorism Act. While I agree it's very important--and I suspect it may be a tad optimistic--it's also empowering to victims and may give them a sense of closure. So I think in that regard it's very important.

I think there are a number of changes in the Correctional and Conditional Release Act being put forward that are very important, some of which our association and police across Canada have been requesting for years--some very significant ones.

The last one I would point out is that Bill C-10 allows immigration officers to refuse work permits to applicants and persons who are vulnerable to abuse and exploitation. This is a preventative step, and I think it's a very creative and wise approach to that problem. So we would support that as well.

Thank you for letting me get that in.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

No problem.

In Bill C-10 there are two new offences. One bans anyone from providing sexually explicit material to a child for the purpose of committing a sexual offence against that child. The second is to ban anyone from using any means of telecommunication to make arrangements with another person to commit a sexual offence against a child.

Would you say that these are two important tools for police in the ever-expanding fight against the exploitation of children?

[Vince Westwick]

The simple answer is yes, and very strongly so.

Normally I stand before this committee and argue that police could do without more complexity in the Criminal Code, but this is an exception to that submission. It's an exception because of the unique nature of the Internet, the unique nature of crimes that have developed in relation to children, and unique crimes that have developed in relation to the mechanisms that these kinds of predators are using.

The flip side of that is it opens up other investigative avenues to police. So the answer is a very strong yes.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

I want to switch gears a little and talk about drug crimes. The president of the Canadian Police Association, Tom Stamatakis, said with respect to drug crimes:

Everyday our members see the devastating effects that drug traffickers and producers have in all of our communities. Those police officers, like those assisting us here today, are the ones that constantly have to arrest the same drug dealers and producers over and over again and stop them from poisoning our children and our grandchildren and robbing youth of their future.

Can you comment on how Bill C-10 and the proposed legislation is going to aid police officers in this fight against drugs and drug crimes?

[Vince Westwick]

Perhaps as a starting point, when Chief White came to Ottawa, one of the first things he did was create a street crimes unit that was specifically designed to go out to deal with street-crime-level drug trafficking. The drug section still exists to deal with project and larger, more complex things, but he saw a need for street enforcement on the drug side. It has been hugely effective in terms of the number of arrests and convictions, and so on, but also in terms of providing community confidence that something was being done and there was a manifest way to do that.

The street crime officers will tell you that they continue to arrest the same people over and over again, therefore putting in mandatory minimum penalties that are tied to aggravating factors is a sound approach. It ties it to serious escalations in the crime--youth violence, and so on--and I think that has value. It has value for the police, but it also has value for the community, in that they see there is some clear consequence to the police actions.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

I want to pick up one of your other comments. You talked about revitalizing confidence in the justice system for the public and victims. I know that in my riding of Brampton West I continuously hear from people who say the justice system appears to be broken, and people are getting very soft sentences for very serious crimes.

Are there parts of the legislation that you think are particularly important that will help with that aspect?

[Vince Westwick]

Absolutely. I resisted in my remarks using the phrase “crisis in confidence”. I prefer to see it as a glass half full and say to revitalize. But it's clear that communities--members of the public and average citizens--are very concerned about the criminal justice system.

I think there's an interesting debate as to whether it's broken, and if so, how broken is it? Some of it is perception. I think the most important thing that's sent out of Bill C-10 is that you have a bill of 140-plus pages that is talking to communities. I think the title, Safe Streets and Communities Act, is very important. It sends a strong message to the reader. I like to think this bill is about messages.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

You'll have to end it there. Thank you.

Mr. Jacob.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Chair, my first question is for Mr. Vince Westwick, from the Ottawa Police Service.

Could you tell me what specific preventive measures has the Ottawa Police Service put in place over the past few years to deal with youth crime?

[Vince Westwick]

What types of services? Which types of services have they--

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

In terms of prevention services addressing youth crime, has the Ottawa Police Service taken any measures over the past few years?

[Vince Westwick]

I'm very quick and proud to say that it's not simply over the last few years, but over the last number of years. Ottawa has always taken a very aggressive posture on youth activities. It has a large community program. You may have noticed that there was an advertisement in the paper for activities in two high schools about talking about youth issues, bullying, and so on. Much of these are driven by community partnerships that include the police. They also have a specific position within the youth section dealing with prevention and community activities related to crime activities.

The whole philosophy is that it isn't simply enforcement; it is a community action that also includes enforcement.

One other example of that is the issue of what they call school resource officers, which is putting police officers into the schools more often, where they can speak to youth at even a primary level, respond to situations, and, I hesitate to say guide, but to offer direction to educators and to youth.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Westwick.

I am happy to hear that prevention is alive and well at the Ottawa Police Service and that it is working.

My second question is for Mr. Irvin Waller.

You talked about a concerted common strategy for prevention and you pointed out that it is the best way to deal with crime victims. Could you tell me more about the proposed common strategy for preventing crime?

[Dr. Irvin Waller]

I've been involved with 14 municipalities from coast to coast that have established city-wide crime prevention and community safety strategies, including in the city of Ottawa an organization called Crime Prevention Ottawa, which has the Boys and Girls Club, the Youth Services Bureau, and so on working in partnership with the police with housing.

I think there are some amazing examples of this in Canada. Waterloo Region has become very well known internationally. Edmonton had a task force that created one. Montreal has for a long time been successful in reducing gangs and so on, because it has had youth outreach programs.

I'd like to give the example of Scotland. Glasgow is a large city with a relatively high homicide rate, with gangs, as was mentioned. The chief of detectives of Glasgow said, “I'm fed up with picking up the phone. I know I can't arrest my way out of crime.” That's a quote from supercop Bill Bratton.

What did they do? They brought in a public health analyst to look at what seemed to be the factors relating to crime. They implemented the solutions, which was a combination of making sure you get the bad guys off the street with programs to help with everything from early childhood through to youth programs. You see reductions of 50% in violence in the areas where they've concentrated, and that's, of course, where the majority is.

That program became a national violence reduction unit. In the recent riots in England, Prime Minister Cameron, after hearing Bratton say you can't arrest your way out of crime, said “We need to adopt the Scottish model.”

I think there are examples in this country where they're already doing this, but I think the Scottish model is a clean example of what we need. This is why we need to balance “tough on criminals” with “tough on causes”, using what works. By the way, you can achieve these reductions in violence in a relatively short period of time, much shorter than adding prison sentences to already lengthy prison sentences.

What I would like to see is a balance between both and I'd like to see it urgently.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dave MacKenzie]

Thank you, Mr. Waller.

Mr. Rathgeber.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to all the witnesses for your interesting and thoughtful presentations.

My first question is to Dr. Waller, and perhaps to Chief McFee. You both mentioned crime statistics, and I think it's important that we explore this a little bit, because there is some misconception out there that, statistically, crime is going down.

I agree with you, Dr. Waller, that that's not necessarily so. You mentioned the victimization survey, and I know the survey to which you refer, but it has admittedly been some time since I've looked at it. This is Statistics Canada surveying Canadians every five years. Is that the survey?

[Dr. Irvin Waller]

That's correct.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

And this was last done in 2009 or 2008?

[Dr. Irvin Waller]

It was in 2009.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

And if my memory is correct, one in four Canadians reported being a victim of crime in the last 12 months, when they were surveyed?