Justice Committee on March 18th, 2013

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Given that you haven't seen their submission, I can tell you, sir, that their submission also indicates that the experience of incarceration actually strengthens the influence of criminal networks, and that incarceration is likely to reinforce gang affiliation. We see that prison gangs are inextricably linked to street gangs.

Given the concern of the very entity you hold up as one which is supportive of your bill—their concern is about the effect of incarceration on the proliferation of these gangs—do you not share my concern that mandatory minimum sentences not only will not achieve the goal you seek, but actually will exacerbate the problem of organized crime and the proliferation of gangs?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I disagree. For individuals who are responsible for this sort of act, especially when it comes to youth and minors, and from all of the consultation that took place up to the compiling of this piece of legislation, I'm obviously in support of a minimum mandatory sentence.

There was a reason we came up with this. It wasn't just something I dreamt about one night and decided to put on a piece of paper the next day. This is a serious problem. The people who are responsible for recruiting vulnerable Canadians and destroying their lifestyle, especially when it comes to youth, need to be held accountable. A minimum mandatory sentence would send a very strong message to these individuals that if they are going to do this, they will be held accountable.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Just so I understand it then, are you saying that you disagree with the Boys and Girls Club of Canada when they say that the experience of incarceration strengthens the influence of criminal networks? Do you disagree with the Boys and Girls Club in that regard?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I did not say I disagree with that. What I'm saying is that I disagree that minimum mandatory sentences are not the way to go.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Can you point me to a single study, can you point me to a single experience that supports your view on that? We see numerous failed instances in other jurisdictions. Is there absolutely any academic study, any empirical study, any experience in another jurisdiction, that supports your theory on that?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I don't have a study that I can back that up with; no, absolutely not.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you.

Given that the Supreme Court in British Columbia in the Sheck case, and in Ontario in the Smickle case, struck down mandatory minimum sentences as being contrary to the charter, do you not have serious concerns about the constitutionality of your bill?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

My understanding is that the ruling is being appealed. We'll wait to see when the appeal decision comes forward.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Can you point to a single instance, one instance, of where the current provisions of the Criminal Code were found by a court to be inadequate for the purposes of prosecuting gang recruitment?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

It's not about an instance. This bill is about protecting our youth, about protecting our communities.

As I mentioned earlier, this bill was compiled after a fair bit of consultation that I did leading up to it. All the information I received from discussions with stakeholders who work very, very closely, including law enforcement officials and front-line police officers, and so on...that's how I came up with it. This bill is supported by them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Casey.

Thank you, Mr. Gill.

Our next questioner is Mr. Calkins from the Conservative Party.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Well, show up one day for a justice committee meeting and you're on the agenda right away. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Gill, I certainly appreciate your testimony and your efforts.

I'm going to ramble on a little here. I represent a rural community in central Alberta. In my community are the four bands at Hobbema: the Samson Band, the Ermineskin Band, the Louis Bull Band, and the Montana Band. They are notorious for gang activity. They are notorious for having had upwards of 13 gangs operating there several years ago and for drive-by shootings. The drive-by shooting of a young girl, Asia Saddleback, made national news. I went to Ethan Yellowbird's funeral. He was a five-year-old boy who was shot, incidentally, through suspected gang activity. The community is largely silent because they fear repercussions and retribution if they were to speak out about these organized crime elements.

The Government of Canada has invested a lot of money in youth crime prevention initiatives there and in expanding the size of the RCMP detachment. Those are some of the common-sense things that we're doing there and that we don't get any credit for, particularly from our friends across the way, but the community also has gotten involved. They've had enough of it.

Nothing creates an environment of tolerance for crime other than tolerance for crime; I mean, that's the way it is. If you don't tolerate it, if you're not going to tolerate it, and if the community stands up and says they've had enough.... The numbers of gangs and their activities have gone down immensely. Notwithstanding the fact that we've changed some of the laws and invested in police, it's just the willingness of the community to partake in this.

I sense that the community would be willing to partake in your piece of legislation here, Mr. Gill. I applaud you for your efforts in trying to do something constructive, even though others may be detractors with regard to your legislation.

For one such detractor, I would ask you this. Let's say hypothetically that your bill has passed and that someone is in jail, incarcerated and convicted for trying to lure somebody into a gang. During their term of incarceration, how many young people exactly—give me a real hard-and-fast number—will they be able to recruit while they're incarcerated?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

My answer would be none.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Well, that's a great number. That works for me. That's good enough for me. The experts, who I like to call the folks with good, old-fashioned common sense, I think would agree with your assessment and would say that zero is probably the right number.

I do have some technical questions for you. I'm not sure if I'm going to get offside with this, but as you know, we have Bill C-43, the faster removal of foreign criminals act. If somebody who's not a resident of Canada and not a citizen of Canada, but is in Canada, and is convicted based on the legislation that you're proposing here, would that meet the threshold for them to be removed from the country if they were deemed to be a threat to Canadian citizens?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

This is a criminal offence. Depending obviously on the outcome and if they are found to be guilty, I would assume that this would meet the threshold.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

I would hope so as well.

Do you think there should be, at any point in time.... I'm not trying to muddy the waters here, but I hear about the same thing that you talked about in your testimony. Some of these really young people are being recruited into these gangs to be used as mules, or whatever you want to call them.

It's not uncommon in my constituency where these gang issues are a problem to see youth targeted, under the age of 12 in particular, because of the protections they're afforded in not being criminally responsible for any of their actions, no matter how heinous their actions might actually be. It's usually in a situation where they're brainwashed, or convinced, or threatened, to do things that any normal child at that age shouldn't even have to imagine, much less be coerced into doing.

Was there any consideration given at any time to creating a different threshold for trying to recruit somebody under the age of 12?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

No. The age that we kept as the benchmark was obviously anyone under the age of 18.

You're absolutely right in terms of these criminal organizations targeting our young people, especially as young as eight. To give you an example, during my consultation I met with someone who was trying to exit the gang lifestyle. It was at an organization called RAGS, Regina Anti-Gang Services, and he shared a story with me.

This individual was about 18 or 19 years of age. He said, “You know, I use my younger siblings, my brothers and my sister, to carry weapons, to carry drugs, and for these other illegal activities.” It was for the same reason that you just mentioned. The younger brother or the sister who is under age cannot be formally charged. If he gets caught, a police officer is able to interrupt them and intercept, but there's nothing anyone can really do.

So, yes, these criminal organizations, these gangs, do use young people to carry out most of the dirty work.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you for your courage, Mr. Gill.

I support your legislation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Calkins.

Thank you, Mr. Gill.

Our next questioner is Mr. Mai from the New Democratic Party.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Gill.

As my colleague, Mr. Jacob, mentioned, we all support efforts to combat street gangs. When you come from the riding of Brossard—La Prairie, on the south shore, across from Montreal, you're also familiar with what's going on. This is a scourge that needs to be dealt with.

My colleague asked you a question that the Library of Parliament researchers prepared regarding your bill. It had to do with section 467.11 of the Criminal Code. I won't read all of it, but you must know that the case law has shown that recruitment is punishable.

My colleague asked you whether this bill was really necessary, given that the Criminal Code and the courts already punish this behaviour. I heard your answer, but could you tell me whether you know of a specific case in which a recruitment charge did not result in a conviction? It could be a case where someone was accused of recruiting members to contribute to an activity of a criminal organization, or facilitate or commit a crime.

Has there been a case where the system could not deal with that because your bill was not in place?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Obviously, because the bill does not exist, I'm assuming it would not be a criminal offence for somebody to carry this out or if somebody were currently caught recruiting an individual.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Well, that's the argument, that it is included. Section 467.11 of the Criminal Code, in the first paragraph, talks about “participates in or contributes to any activity of the criminal organization”. If you look at the jurisprudence, it has included recruiting. You may not be aware of that.

Also, with respect to something that Mr. Casey and Mr. Jacob mentioned on prevention, I think it is very important for prevention. We had this argument when there was a bill from Ms. Fry regarding cyberbullying. Surprisingly, your colleagues were talking about prevention and saying that what would happen with that private member's bill was that we would put the wrong people in jail; for instance, we'd put youth back in jail. That's why your colleagues actually opposed that bill.

One of the problems I see is, and I want to hear from you on this, isn't it a fact that we're going with repression rather than prevention? I understand what you're trying to get at, but are mandatory minimum sentences the solution? Do you think it's better than prevention?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Prevention is always the best way to go. As I mentioned earlier, I'm all for prevention. Obviously, I'm all for having different programs so this problem never starts. I wish it never did, and I hope it never does in the future, but the reality is that it's there. Even though we have tons of programs offered at different levels in different organizations and so on, the problem still exists. This bill is going to target individuals who are responsible, who are committing these crimes. That's what this bill is going to do.

I'm all for prevention. Please do not misunderstand me.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

It's just because the last time we were studying a private member's bill here, your colleagues said that putting people in jail might not be the right solution in terms of cyberbullying, for instance. One of the things Mr. Casey raised was something that we've always felt, that basically, if you put people in jail, we all know it's a school for criminals, right?

More specifically to your bill, there are provisions regarding consecutive sentences. Do you know if they apply to young offenders as well?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I would have to go back and look to give you an accurate answer. I'd be happy to look into it and get back to you. I don't want to give you an answer that is not accurate.