Justice Committee on March 18th, 2013

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair.

With all due respect this isn't part of my bill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Does any component of your bill deal with bail?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

No.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

No.

Thank you.

It doesn't affect your bill then.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

You don't connect them? Very well. I'll ask you something else, and it has a direct connection to your bill.

In your opinion, does Bill C-394 respect the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, in particular, the freedom of association, enshrined in section 2(d), and the principles outlined in the Youth Criminal Justice Act, in particular, the principle of diminished moral blameworthiness or culpability?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

With all the consultation we had leading up to compiling this bill, yes, my understanding is it is in compliance with all the laws.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

The courts have already ruled that criminal organization recruitment is covered by the current provisions for participating in the activities of a criminal organization under section 467.11 of the Criminal Code, and that instructing the commission of an offence for a criminal organization is covered by section 467.13 of the Criminal Code. In light of that, do you believe that Bill C-394 is necessary?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Yes, absolutely, I do feel it's necessary. You are right that currently the Criminal Code covers the criminal organization part, but it does not cover the recruitment part. Everything I've done leading up to compiling this bill and the consultations I had with different organizations and stakeholders shows it's lacking with respect to recruitment.

I used one of the examples in my remarks. I met with the Boys and Girls Club in Winnipeg. The example they shared with me showed the frustration the law enforcement agencies and other organizations have when they know somebody is recruiting young people or other individuals into those organizations. There is nothing in the justice system or in our laws that targets those individuals. I believe this is the root of the problem.

We need to target this problem at the root, which is the recruitment. A big part of these criminal organizations and so-called gangs now have dedicated individuals to doing that; they are solely responsible for recruiting individuals into these criminal organizations. I heard lots of examples during my consultations, whether it was the law enforcement agencies or the other organizations that expressed their frustration in terms of why this is not a criminal offence.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

The next questioner is Mr. Armstrong from the Conservative Party.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Gill, I'm sure you've had discussions with Toronto City Council about this, because recently, a lot of the press about gangs has been from the city of Toronto. What is the position of Toronto City Council on your bill?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you for asking me that question.

Toronto City Council has endorsed this bill. It was brought to the floor and a motion was put forward.

I would say gangs are a problem in every part of the country. No area is immune to this, but it is a serious problem in some of the major cities, including Toronto and the GTA as a whole. It's always very unfortunate any time you hear of a case in which young people are involved in shooting, killing, or any sort of criminal activity, but it's especially troubling when a young person loses their life or they're involved in this lifestyle, which is going to lead them to a dead end at the end of the day.

I was very thankful and very happy that Toronto City Council endorsed this bill.

I have not received any opposition to this bill from any group, any stakeholder, or any organization, other than the Liberal Party, whose members spoke against my bill in the House and obviously did not support it at second reading.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

That's unfortunate.

From my experience working with youth, they are often recruited into these types of organizations. It's almost as if they're intimidated, that if they don't join, if they don't acquiesce to the people recruiting them, they could face some pretty severe retribution, sometimes from some of their family. Did you find that in your research?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Yes. That is a big part of the problem, especially for some of the vulnerable individuals and especially for youth. It is very easy to entice them to join a criminal organization using different methods, be they threats, giving them drugs or money, or a flashy car; you name it. There are tons of different methods of attracting individuals into joining gangs, especially youth.

That's not to say, Mr. Armstrong, that it's limited only to those individuals. During my consultations, I met with organizations. I met with victims' families who were living a perfect lifestyle, you could say, where the family was very well structured. The dad was a professional and the mom was a professional. It was a perfect lifestyle and a perfect family setting and so on, yet their kids had become victims of this criminal activity that goes on.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

After the passage of your bill, someone who is actually out there recruiting and trying to get someone to join an organization could be charged, whereas currently they can't be charged.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Yes, you are absolutely right. Currently—

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

If this bill is passed, Mr. Gill, and I'm a young person and someone tried to recruit me, I could report them. Instead of the police saying there is nothing they could do about it, I would be safer. I would know that if I report it, the police are going to deal with the person and I'm not going to be left to their intimidation and their threats.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

You're absolutely right. As I mentioned earlier, one of the biggest frustrations the law enforcement agencies have is that even if they know somebody is committing this crime, there's nothing they can do about it. Even if someone like you, or any other victim, reports this to a police officer and says that's what's happening to them, that these individuals, gangs, or criminal organization members are forcing them, recruiting them, or doing this to them, there's nothing the police can do under our existing law.

You're absolutely right. This would make it a criminal offence. Particularly if someone is recruiting or is caught recruiting those under the age of 18, they would be subject to a minimum mandatory sentence of six months and up to five years.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

That would get those recruiters off the streets and in jail where they belong so children can be safe, because it really is our children that they're approaching. What ages do these gangs target, Mr. Gill?

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

It varies, but it was very troubling during my consultations to see some of the incidents that I came across. These gangs were targeting young people, as young as eight years of age. Eight years of age; you can imagine. I'm a father. I have three kids. My youngest is seven years old. Honestly, what does my seven-year-old really know?

It's a very serious problem. It's a problem that I feel is growing, as do a lot of other individuals who work very closely with this issue, and it's getting out of hand.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

This would allow parents also to call the police. If their child is approached, the parents can actually lay charges. It wouldn't be just the young people; it would be the parents as well.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Yes, absolutely: anybody and everybody.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Armstrong.

Thank you, Mr. Gill.

Our next questioner is Mr. Casey from the Liberal Party.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Gill, a couple of times you referenced your discussions with the Boys and Girls Club in Winnipeg. I presume you're aware that the submission made by the Boys and Girls Clubs of Canada to this committee called for prevention and a rehabilitative approach. This was actually referenced in Mr. Jacob's question, although I think when he asked the question, there was a disconnect and you weren't able to answer it, so I want to bring you back to that.

Given that the Boys and Girls Clubs of Canada has put a submission before this committee calling for a rehabilitative approach and a prevention approach, I'd like your comments on how you can square what I presume is your statement of support by them, given that what you've opted for here by the adoption of a mandatory minimum sentence is an approach of retribution, discipline, or punishment.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I'm not against the rehabilitative approach. I think we should use any approach possible to help eliminate or help reduce this problem as much as possible. All I'm saying is that this would be another tool that the law enforcement agencies and our justice system would have in their tool box to use for individuals who obviously are clearly responsible for this.

With regard to the submission from them, I'm not aware of it. I actually did not get a copy, or I haven't seen it. But I used the example which the president and CEO shared with me during my consultation process. I travelled to Winnipeg. I sat down with them. We discussed this issue for about an hour. Some of the things that I heard during that meeting were pretty troubling.