Justice Committee on March 20th, 2013

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for joining us today.

I wanted to ask you about the $5-million cut to the funding for the Initiative in Support of Access to Justice in Both Official Languages.

We know that many cuts have been made in the public service. We know that was done to the detriment of bilingualism. We know that was also done to the detriment of francophones' right to work in their language. We know that, especially in certain departments, requests are being made to reduce the number of documents that have to be translated. Francophones are also being asked to draft documents in English. It's a bit sad to see this happening, especially since today is the Journée internationale de la francophonie—the international day of la Francophonie.

I know that a budget will be tabled tomorrow. The Minister of Finance will decide what that budget will contain. However, as Minister of Justice, what do you think about the cuts made in the area of access to justice in both official languages?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I don't think it's correct to characterize something that is sunsetting as a cut. Nonetheless, as you heard in my response to, I think it was Mr. Cotler, we wait for that. Just so you know, there are ongoing funds in the amount of $2.8 million that continue to be available to support official language minority communities in Canada, to address the issues related to access to justice in both official languages.

All of us have a stake in making sure the justice system in this country works in both official languages. You may remember, or perhaps it was before you entered Parliament, we brought forward a bill having to do with justice efficiencies. It dealt with the question of translating documents and witnesses in one language, and in trying to clarify that to make sure the system works in a fair way for people who have either of the official languages of this country. Even though it was technical in nature and in some ways difficult to explain, I was pleased that we moved forward with it. In any case, we have ongoing funding, and the funding you referred to is up to and including the end of this month.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Okay.

I know you're saying that the Minister of Finance makes budget-related decisions, but do you support that initiative as Minister of Justice?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I support access to justice in both official languages. I was able to give you a couple of examples. With respect to the efficiencies bill that I talked about, I remember asking the departmental officials how long it had been around. They told me it was the fourth attempt in 10 years. I was absolutely committed, and I told them that we had to get it through. There is ongoing support for official language minorities in Canada, quite apart from the budget. We don't have to focus entirely on that. The $2.8 million funding is ongoing. If I didn't agree with it, it wouldn't be continuing, but I certainly do agree with it. Again, we all have a stake in making sure people are comfortable in either of the official languages when they appear before the courts or any other part of the justice system.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you.

A $60.2-million decrease has also been the result of the savings identified as part of the federal budget 2012 spending review. Can you explain to us how those decreases were produced and, especially, tell us how many positions have been or will be affected?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'd like the deputy to give some of the details on that. This is part of the ongoing efforts of all agencies, departments, all aspects of the federal government in terms of holding the line and doing what we can to ensure that the fiscal situation of this country remains healthy. All of the budgets have been consistent with that. That being said, and as was pointed out by your colleague, part of that is with respect to youth transfers to the provinces. I made the comment to her and I'll make it again to you that overall, the provinces are getting considerably more money from the federal government. That has been the case every single year we have been in government. It's approximately 50% higher today than when we took office in 2006. The amounts to the provinces have increased to over $20 billion. We recognize that our provincial counterparts have responsibilities in these areas, and one of them is, for the most part, the administration of justice. This is all part of that package. Overall, they are getting more money, so you can rest assured they're better off as a result of these transfers.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I understand.

You talked about certain transfers, but they account for only part of that reduction. When you are a member of the Standing Committee on Finance and you ask the Minister of Finance for further information on cuts and reductions, it is very difficult to obtain an answer. Even the Parliamentary Budget Officer says that the government has not provided any studies on the direct impact on jobs.

You talked about reductions, but could you tell us what kind of cuts have been made in terms of positions? Will any jobs be cut as a result of those reductions?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Keep it short, sir, please.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I've always found the Minister of Finance to be as forthcoming as possible and consistent with his responsibilities in terms of preparing and tabling a budget. I think you would have to admit, as would be conceded by all my colleagues, he's been very responsive and open to suggestions that have been made not just by my colleagues, but by groups and individuals from across the country. That is part of the process.

I'll ask the deputy minister to provide some further details.

[William F. Pentney, Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice]

There are about 5,000 employees across Canada, and 330 positions will be cut. So far, 95 people have decided to retire, go back to school or leave the public service. An attempt was made to find 130 employees another position elsewhere in the public service. Some positions have been cut, but new ones have already been found for 130 people. That is a testament to the quality and professionalism of the employees who were working for our department. We are doing the same for the remaining employees. Some of them are thinking things through, and they have 90 days to decide. We will help those who want to stay in the public service and those who want to leave—either to retire or for any other reason.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, sir. Thank you, Minister.

If somebody wants to follow up on that....We have to move on to the next questioner

Mr. Armstrong, from the Conservative Party.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for being here.

Minister, my background is in education. For 18 years I served as a teacher, a vice-principal, and a principal. I can tell you, from meeting my colleagues at many conferences, that it was very frustrating for educators across Canada to know that many of their students were accessing provincial services, from justice, from health, from community services, as well as education, and these were particularly victims of crime. There were all these gaps in the system. In fact, one hand didn't know what the other hand was doing. They wouldn't even know sometimes that a particular child was receiving services or interventions from another department, even though both were going on simultaneously.

You and I had the experience of doing a round table together recently in Halifax. We heard loud and clear the positive impact that child advocacy centres were having on the lives of children. I know this is something for which you, personally, have taken the initiative in supporting the funding.

I'm wondering if you could elaborate on what you, as the Minister of Justice, have seen as far as positive impact is concerned and why you believe we should continue to place a high priority on funding these centres.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I've been told over the years, going back to the period of time that I practised law in the early 1980s, how difficult it is in the system for the children who come forward with the allegation that they have been abused. You'd often hear stories about people who had to visit the police station, and they were visiting the crown attorney, and they had to have medical services. On all of this, people were unanimous that being involved with something like this would further hurt the child in terms of traumatizing the child. When I heard for the first time this idea that you could have a centre where all those services are brought to the child, it immediately made sense. Most people would agree, regardless of where they are on many of the issues that face us in the justice area, that this is a good idea.

In the years since, I've had a look at this. There are quite a few of these centres in the United States. Quite frankly, the U.S. is further ahead in terms of the development of these centres. It concerned me when I visited the one in St. Catharines that you want as much as possible for the funding to be there, to be available for this, because this is a good idea. They go out of their way when you go into one of these centres. You're aware of them because of our discussions. They are in fact child friendly. They make it as comfortable as possible, not just for the child but for the parent or the guardian who is there with the child. It works on every level.

I was very pleased that the federal government has gotten into this area and that we have provided money through a couple of budgets now for these centres. This is money well spent. Reaching out to the most vulnerable people in our justice system, which has to be children who have been abused, is very positive.

It is certainly my hope that right across this country people will explore this. Again it's not just a question of waiting for government funding. I've been pleased, over the years, to see private interests move forward to try to get these centres going. I've been pleased to approve feasibility studies for people looking into building one of these centres.

I remember visiting with our colleague Greg Rickford in northern Ontario. One size doesn't fit all. It doesn't necessarily have to be one building in one place. There can be adaptations of that, but the main and important concept is to make it as child friendly as possible and to do what we can to bring those services to the child. These are very important.

This is something you're going to see in this country for a long time to come. I appreciate we're only relatively recently getting into this area, but this will be a staple, this will be a component right across Canada for dealing with children who have, unfortunately, become victimized. Again it is certainly consistent with what we're saying, about doing what we can to help victims. It is one of the things we can all be very proud of.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Armstrong.

Thank you, Minister.

The next questioner is Mr. Jacob from the New Democratic Party.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for joining us this afternoon.

My question is somewhat related to what Mr. Cotler was saying earlier.

Spending for grants and contributions will be cut by $38.8 million by 2013-2014. The biggest reduction will affect the Youth Justice Services Funding Program. Could you describe that program briefly? By how much will the annual funds available for that program decrease?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

The annual funding, Mr. Jacob, will be $141.7 million. Just so you know, this is permanent, built-in funding that is not part of the sunsetting. It goes hand in hand, quite frankly, with the other areas where the federal government reaches out on its own, quite apart from....

That $141 million is the biggest transfer this department has, and again, that's quite apart from the overall increase that the Minister of Finance and our colleagues transfer to the provinces each year.

That being said, I've been very proud of and very pleased with the initiatives we have taken in reaching out to victims and young people. I mentioned the guns, gangs, and drugs component of the youth justice fund, the drug treatment component of the youth justice fund, and the intensive rehabilitation, custody, and supervision program. All of these have received millions of dollars of funding from the federal government.

I think they're good investments, because they're reaching out to children and young people who have become either involved with the law or unfortunately become addicted. These are the kinds of things we have to have. I'm very pleased with and proud of that. Again, the largest transfer we have is to the provinces. That's one component of the assistance that we give to the provinces.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Prevention, rehabilitation, social reintegration and restorative justice are investments and not expenditures.

Why make cuts to that particular program?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It is the largest transfer that we do have at the federal level.

One of the things that I am pleased about, and I watch for this, quite frankly, in every budget, is I'm pleased to see that the transfers to the provinces have gone up. They have attained record levels. As I indicated, we're up to a $20-billion increase.

I think it was you, Monsieur Jacob, who at one time said to me that we can't be in the business of telling the provinces what to do and what they can't do.

That being said, we know they have important areas of responsibility within the Constitution of this country, whether it be health care, education, or the administration of justice. I've been very pleased that over the years we have steadily increased, to record levels, the amount of money we have given to the provinces. I think they're good investments. I understand that they have important responsibilities within the Constitution, so I've been very supportive of that.

As you indicated, the money we are putting toward victims, victims funds, rehabilitation programs, these are investments as well. I believe they do pay off in the long run. The extent that we help individuals get off drugs or help individuals stay away from drugs, to the extent that we help children who find themselves caught up in the criminal justice system, I believe they're good investments. This is why I have been so supportive of them over the years.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Since I have a bit of time left, I will ask a question about the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal.

Can you tell me what the specific impact of repealing section 67 of the Canadian Human Rights Act will be on the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal's workload?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

The main estimates, with respect to any changes that have taken place to the Canadian Human Rights Act, indicate an increase in funding of $0.04 million for the particular implementation of the section that you just indicated, Monsieur Jacob. There is money set aside for that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Jacob, and thank you, Minister.

We have one minute left. I'll turn it over to Mr. Goguen from the Conservative Party for a question and a quick answer.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, and your officials for appearing.

I noted from your comments that victims' rights are very important to this government. We know we've made great strides in this area, and we know we're in a period of fiscal constraint.

Minister, I take it from your comments that I'm correct in assuming that supporting victims' rights will continue to be a priority of this government.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I know it is a priority of yours, Mr. Goguen. Thank you very much for all you have done in the years you have been here in support of this. I am pleased that you are continuing your responsibilities as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice.

You have it quite correct that whenever we introduce legislation, whenever we take initiatives, the first question from individuals like yourself is how it affects victims and what it is doing for victims in this country. I have been very proud over the years to be able to confirm that, yes, we are better protecting, better focusing on and highlighting their interests. We are better reaching out to those individuals who have unfortunately been caught up in the criminal justice system. We're on their side, and we're doing everything we can to assist them.

Thank you for your input.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Goguen.

Thank you, Minister. Thank you for spending the hour with us.

We'll suspend for one minute while the minister leaves and then we'll continue on with officials.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

We'll call the meeting back to order.

We have officials from the Department of Justice with us. Thank you very much for staying. We have them for 45 minutes.

We do have to vote, ladies and gentlemen—well, we don't have to—but there is an opportunity to vote on the votes that are presented here in the main estimates. That will take no more than five minutes.

Just a reminder that on Monday, we are having our meeting again on Bill C-394. On Monday we hope to do clause-by-clause study of Parm Gill's bill, the bill we were dealing with on Monday, so if you have any amendments, give them to the clerk by Friday. That would be appreciated.

Let's start with Madame Boivin.