Justice Committee on March 25th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Jacob.

Our next questioner from the Conservative Party is Mr. Armstrong.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all of you for being here.

I'm going to start with Officer VanMackelbergh. What is your rank, sir?

[George VanMackelbergh]

Right now, I'm the vice-president of the Winnipeg Police Association. I'm seconded there full-time.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Okay, Mr. Vice-President. Thank you for being here.

The minister mentioned the recruitment of young people with FASD. I don't have much experience with gangs, but I do have some experience in working with young people with FASD. Can you tell me how the gangs would use a young person who is affected with that particular disability? What would they use them for?

[George VanMackelbergh]

Again, they're recruiting so young now.... This is a predatory crime as much as it is anything else. Let's be clear about that. They're not just picking anybody off the street. There's a profile they're looking for, and often, as we all know, youth who suffer from some of these syndromes already feel like outsiders. The gang plays to that, and it develops a loyalty that's almost impossible to break. Again, they'll spend the next four or five years in that culture, feeling that they belong and feeling that the only people helping them are the gangs themselves, when in fact it's sheer manipulation at every level.

The importance of a law like this—and we've heard it all, as we've heard it in the questions—is that dealing with gangs is a multi-pronged attack. Enforcement is one end of it. Tackling recruitment will protect society's investment in these other projects, because that's what they're coming to: gangs are coming to the places that we're trying to provide for youths so they don't fall into gang life.

It is truly an investment. Again, if I can go further on that, they will drag the youth through layers of gangs in Manitoba so that, as I said earlier, the big fish know what they're getting. It's programming. If you can't break that programming, if you can't intervene in this young person's life, they're never really going to stand a chance of being a functioning or contributing member of society. By the time that switch might go on or they might have that traumatic incident that changes the way they think, they'll have had a decade of garbage coming with them that they'll never overcome. That's why it's important.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

A suggestion has been made about having a gang-free zone, of doing a protective circle around schools, recreation centres, and Boys and Girls Clubs. If this legislation is passed and something like that is included in it, how would the gangs react to that? Would they find a way around that? They're going to find a place to try to attract students and young people—

[George VanMackelbergh]

As long as there have been laws, there have been criminals trying to find their way around them, but we as a society have to say that this isn't good. Again, at the Winnipeg Police Association we've put our money where our mouth is. We have a program whereby we go out to schools dealing with kindergarten and up, to preach to them. We have officers volunteering their time and going into these schools to show them another side of society, to speak to them about kindness and treating each other with respect, and to provide an opportunity.

It's like any other law. If we're going to say that it's a crime-free zone, that organized crime is not going to come there, and that they are not going to prey on our most vulnerable, whether that be in terms of age or mental capacity, we've stood for something. I think that's important. Does that answer your question?

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Absolutely.

I'm still in the same area, and maybe I'll ask the minister this question. You've talked to your police forces across Manitoba, I'm sure. If this legislation is passed, what other tools are they asking for? What would happen next to support the elimination of the gangs' ability to recruit? What other tools do the police officers need?

[Andrew Swan]

In terms of other changes to the Criminal Code, there are a couple of outstanding items we can talk about another day.

Certainly I think the police are looking for us to continue to work on those individuals at the top of the pyramid, those who control criminal organizations and gangs, the ones who really decide to have members follow the things that George was talking about, in terms of which youth to prey on and to pursue.

I think if this bill goes through it will provide assistance to the police. If the amendments are in there as well, police will have some satisfaction. They can at least enforce a protective area around places where we want young people to feel safe.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Armstrong. That's your five minutes.

Thank you very much for the questions and answers.

Next, from the New Democratic Party, is Mr. Mai.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all very much for being here today.

Obviously we understand, and we find that we need to tackle gang recruitment, but we also need to have the resources to do that. Here in Ottawa we're working with the laws and everything. That's why it's great for us to have all of you here, because you're on the ground.

The Parliamentary Budget Officer recently published a report called “Expenditure Analysis of Criminal Justice in Canada”. His report mentions that 73% of the total expenditures for the Canadian criminal justice system are assumed by provinces and territories. In the latest budget from just last week, we know the federal government has failed to renew the police officer recruitment fund.

I'd like to know what impact that might have in your respective jurisdictions, either provincially or with respect to police officers.

Maybe Mr. Swan could go first.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, does that relate to this bill? Are you talking about enforcement of this provision?

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I am.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

I think it relates. I'll let them answer. There was a question before about the cost of this to the provinces, which was allowed, so I'll allow this one, too.

[Andrew Swan]

Again, public safety has a cost. We know in Manitoba that we are shouldering more of that responsibility as the years go by. I'll have a chance to meet with Minister Nicholson later on today, and I'll be repeating some of the things we've raised, both publicly and privately, on Manitoba's behalf.

There's no question that funding for legal aid is a major concern for Manitoba and other provinces. The provinces have been bearing all the increased costs with respect to legal aid. Manitoba was in support of many of the provisions of Bill C-10, primarily because we're the ones who had asked for them to begin with. We think many of the provisions in Bill C-10 were the right thing to do. We know they are going to have an additional cost, and we're hoping to refresh the partnership we have with the federal government.

Drug treatment court is another area. We think the federal government made some very wise investments in allowing drug treatment courts to get going. We would love to be able to expand those to try to get people off the criminal track if the reason for their law-breaking is their addiction. We certainly hope to continue enhancing that partnership.

I think I did gently mention the police officer recruitment fund. The funding for that is running out. Unless the province backfills that, there's going to be a reduction in police forces for a number of municipalities.

We've worked well with the federal government. We believe in providing support when we think the federal government of any stripe is moving in the right direction. We will also criticize the federal government when we think they're not going in the right direction.

This bill today is a positive step. As I say, we'll have some other things to say in different places about how we can best work together to keep improving the partnership for the safety of our communities.

[George VanMackelbergh]

It's really not my purview.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Mr. VanMackelbergh, in terms of police recruitment, we know, for instance, if we have a bill here, you need to have the necessary resources in order to tackle the problem. We talk about the fact that we need to have police officers on the ground in order to really tackle gang-related issues. The police officer recruitment fund was made to make sure we had the necessary people on the front line.

Would it not help to have the necessary funds in order to hire more police officers to tackle this issue?

[George VanMackelbergh]

Suffice to say, the more feet on the ground, the more territory you own. Any general from the start of time will tell you that. The more officers you have on the ground, the more crime they see, the more they detect, the more solutions, hopefully, they can find.

I can only speak for our jurisdiction. Our complement has grown over the years. We have a dedicated organized crime unit. We have a dedicated street crime unit. General patrol officers working in these communities deal with this all the time.

Certainly it would be easy to say more officers would help, and it certainly would, make no mistake. But I think solving the gang unit is more about making the most of the resources you have now. Anything you can do to augment them certainly would help, and that fund certainly has helped lots of jurisdictions, there's no doubt about it.

Our relationship with our provincial government has been good. Minister Swan has spearheaded lots of initiatives to help give us the tools, but I think that in itself, for clarity.... In all honesty, is it a big help? Yes, but it's not the answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Mai.

The agenda says 4:30, but with the indulgence of the committee I have two more speakers on my list. If you don't mind, I'll have the two questioners finish. If our guests can stay an extra six minutes, that would be great. Thank you very much.

Next for the Conservative Party, Mr. Menegakis.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank our witnesses for appearing before us today.

You mentioned on several occasions today, Minister, that gangs, and in particular gang leaders, know the law. Clearly there are laws today that are rather punitive for those participating in criminal acts, and the kinds of acts you would expect the gangs would participate in.

I know during the second reading of this debate the sponsor of this bill, MP Parm Gill, indicated the purpose of his bill is to address specifically the issue of young people being targeted and recruited by gangs, and criminal gangs obviously. When you speak of gangs in this context, it's criminal gangs we're talking about, as we can well appreciate. He noted youth are being recruited by some of Canada's most notorious and violent criminal organizations because of their age and vulnerability.

From the discussion we've heard today, and from some of the questions and answers going back and forth in your presentations, we're really talking about an extra tool in the tool chest for law enforcement here.

Do you think the proposed offences focused on the recruitment of young people, particularly through the imposition of the mandatory minimum penalty, would clearly denounce such conduct? I'm interested to see if you feel this would reflect Parliament's intent to protect children and other vulnerable persons from the threats imposed by organized crime.

[Andrew Swan]

Yes, I believe it would. It's another step in the right direction. If we can describe it as denunciation or.... What I prefer to call it is a guaranteed consequence. If a gang member is caught recruiting a young person into a gang, they know there will be a consequence.

I know we've had some discussion of “Wouldn't they get around it?” If we make playgrounds and schools gang-free zones, won't they try somewhere else? They will, but anything we do to make it more difficult for gangs to carry out their activities, for gangs to recruit people, for gangs to inflict harm on our communities, is a positive step.

An example of that would be criminal property forfeiture laws that Manitoba and other provinces are bringing in. People will say, “Is it solving the problem?” No, but it's one step along the way. If we hit gangs and organized crime in the pocketbook by seizing their property using civil law, it becomes that much more difficult for gangs and criminal organizations to carry out their activities. We make it a more and more hostile place for gangs to carry on business. We disrupt their activities. We make it more difficult, and by doing that we get the dividend of safer communities.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. VanMackelbergh, you're in a unique position in that you are the voice of thousands of police officers who are part of your association. Could you give us a sense of how the rank and file, for lack of a better term, are perceiving this bill?

[George VanMackelbergh]

I think you said it best through the opening of your question. In fact, truly what this represents to us is another tool in the chest. If it goes through as it stands, it will be something else we know will affect parole, because there will be consequences for the hardened gang member. It's not for the first-timer, someone who's new, and the like. But for the hardened gang member, that is the consequence. Somebody can go to jail and do five years at 18 or 19 and it's no big deal. They come out bigger and stronger. But when these same gang members are having their parole adjusted when they're 45 or 50, believe me, they start to think about that.

The rank and file welcome any tool that can be given to them. Again, as I said earlier, we hope it's not a cumbersome tool and it's something that can be applied. That would be the rank and file's opinion on this, sir.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for that intervention.

Our final questioner is Mr. Marston from the New Democratic Party.