Justice Committee on March 27th, 2013

[Tom Wright]

Thank you for your question, Madam Vice-Chair.

I think it's an interesting situation. Senator Runciman talked in terms of turning the other cheek. I think that jurisdictions had to basically, to use another euphemism, turn a blind eye to it. There never was a situation that I'm aware of in which the activity of a provincial athletic commission was challenged legally. I don't believe there was ever a situation in which it was challenged municipally. I think the situation is, as was recognized in some of the commentary by Mr. Pacetti and Mr. Runciman, that in the end these are two athletes—highly trained, highly skilled—who are entering into a competition of their own free will and doing so with full knowledge of their situation.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

But at the same time, it shows that the disposition was absolutely useless. That's the point I'm getting at. That's my conclusion. I'm sure you agree with it.

Maybe it is because I got zero in biology when I was a kid, but one point I note is that we're adding to the definition in section 83 at the same time as we're introducing different organizations such as, just to name them correctly....

It says this:

a contest between amateur athletes in a combative sport with fists, hands or feet held in a province if the sport is on the programme of the International Olympic Committee or the International Paralympic Committee and, in the case where the province’s lieutenant governor in council or any other person or body specified by him or her requires it, the contest is held with their permission....

That's a bit better.

But we're including only feet. When I watched a UFC fight, it seemed that elbows and knees came into play. I wonder whether the amendment under Bill S-209 would be sufficient to apply to the UFC.

Does the statement “fists, hands or feet” include elbows? Does “feet” include knees? I'm not sure whether you know what I mean, but I don't know whether the terminology is specific enough to achieve the intended result.

[Tom Wright]

Thank you again for that question.

We chatted about that when we were moving forward and thinking about exactly how to put the nomenclature in place. We came to the conclusion that you'd actually have to bring out a book of anatomy that included every single body part that could potentially be used in a competition, because sometimes it's your shoulder, sometimes it's your thigh, sometimes it could be your calf. At some point, you have to bring a level of understanding to what the fundamentals are in a mixed martial arts competition. It was felt to be representative of enough of the sport to add just the feet.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

So you're satisfied?

[Tom Wright]

Yes, I'm completely satisfied.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Excellent.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much, Madame.

Our next questioner is Mr. Albas from the Conservative Party.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Wright, for joining us here today. I'm a big fan of Senator Runciman. He was the sponsor of my bill for the importation of intoxicating liquors amendment that changed some of the archaic laws set during prohibition. I see that Senator Runciman again is trying to bring clarity to some old rules to allow more economic activity and more clarity.

Mr. Chair, we heard the Minister of Justice a few weeks ago point out that in cases such as the Citizen's Arrest and Self-defence Act, it's important that we clarify so that citizens know clearly what their rights are. In this case, I think a good argument can be made that there isn't sufficient clarity. When I was a municipal councillor, I said that if bylaws are not clear, then everyone is less able to act within their rights. So I think that adding the clarity that is before us is good.

Now, this particular prize fight.... I find that to be a very interesting term. It seems to be a bit dated as well. I think it dates back to 1903.

Obviously it's our job as legislators to constantly keep reviewing some of these things, and there are effects upon amateur sport. In my area there are many judo competitions, tae kwon do competitions, karate competitions. I guess, given the wording that is in the code without this change, that a lot of these very good activities could be held to criminal sanctions.

Is that not correct, Mr. Wright?

[Tom Wright]

It's possible. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but the ambiguity always brings up the potential that somebody might be able to find something in the language to jeopardize those sports that you're referring to, Mr. Albas.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Bill S-209 will extend the exemption for amateur prize fights in a number of ways.

First, it will allow any amateur combative sport event in a sport that is on the Olympic or Paralympics program. If a province chooses, it can require that the Olympic or Paralympic combative sport contest obtain a licence from that particular province.

Second, the bill will make an exception to the prize fight offence for any amateur sport contest that is placed on a list of designated amateur combative sports by the province, and the province can choose to require that a licence is necessary for a designated amateur combative sport contest.

Third, it will make an exception for any other amateur combative sport contest for which a province has chosen to grant a licence.

Mr. Wright, in your view, Bill S-209 will extend the exemption for amateur prize fights in a way that respects this provincial decision-making.

[Tom Wright]

Yes, absolutely, there's no question. Over the last two to three months, I'd say, I've specifically.... A week ago, I was in the province of Saskatchewan, where they recognize that it's their position to determine whether or not they want to proceed to sanction the sport and regulate the sport on a provincial basis. They're going through the debate internally as to whether they perhaps want to do it on a municipal basis.

As you probably know, in British Columbia right now the sport is sanctioned, and only on a municipal basis, but Bill 50 was passed in Victoria last June, which allowed for the establishment of an athletic commissioner. That work is now going through the bureaucratic process. They will most likely be taking to their cabinet in the coming months the decision to move it to being regulated on a provincial basis. My perception or understanding is that it will remain a completely provincial and/or municipal decision.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

In regard to my experience, the South Okanagan Events Centre is in my riding of Okanagan—Coquihalla. It's in Penticton, British Columbia, and they have held such events. Again, in speaking to the members of the athletic commission, they've reported that it's all about setting up the systems to make sure it's properly regulated and that safety is always paramount, whether we're talking about the safety of the participants or the event itself and the logistics to go along with that. Certainly, there have been good reports of economic activity because of that.

I'd like to finish now, Mr. Chair. How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

You have one minute.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I've been watching the UFC since it first debuted. I've been training in martial arts since I was nine. I have to say that since your company itself acquired the property and has carried on with the addition of weight classes and the addition of criteria of what is and isn't allowed—their original marketing was that anything goes—a lot of good things have happened.

I would encourage you to look at judo, as well as tae kwon do, where there are international ranking systems for the Olympics and also their corresponding provincial and national bodies. I think that they train and educate one another and make sure their coaches are holding themselves to a very high standard. I would encourage your organization to support those kinds of efforts because, again, it is the fastest growing spectator sport in Canada.

I also imagine, Mr. Chair, that there are going to be elements where people are participating more and more, and I do know there's not always the same level of training and certification specific to the sport of mixed martial arts.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Was that a question or just a comment?

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

It's just a general comment, Mr. Chair.

I just want to remark again on how much I enjoy your chairship.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thanks.

[Tom Wright]

Mr. Chair, is it possible for me to make one quick comment on what Mr. Albas said?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

You can have one quick response.

[Tom Wright]

Interestingly enough, over the last 12 to 18 months, I'd say, an organization has been founded in Sweden that is called the International Mixed Martial Arts Federation, the IMMAF, and the UFC is absolutely supporting the IMMAF. I'm on a conference call with them every two weeks.

Their eventual goal is to gain acceptance through SportAccord. In order to gain acceptance through SportAccord, you need to have 40 global members. Right now, the IMMAF has 19, with applications from another 40 to 45 countries from around the world. All of those applications are being properly vetted, the notion being that you want to have that kind of international amateur body to provide the kind of guidance and oversight that are necessary for a sport to continue to grow, to continue to grow in a credible manner, and to eventually have an opportunity to make an application to become an Olympic sport.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Wright, and thank you, Mr. Albas.

Our next questioner is Monsieur Dubé from the New Democratic Party.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, thanks for taking the time to be here, Mr. Wright.

We have a bill that my predecessor on the sports file, Glenn Thibeault, actually presented in terms of trying to find a way to get rid of this pandemic—I think at this point we can call it that—of concussions. That was one of the big issues for me when I started working on this particular issue with regard to MMA.

I remember even having a conversation with my colleague, Ryan Leef, and I started looking at studies and hearing from doctors and others who actually said that you have more chance of getting a head injury from horseback riding than by engaging in MMA, as absurd as that may sound.

That said, you come from a large company that has the capacity to properly regulate. I think we had a conversation once where you talked about the importance of this bill for smaller leagues as well, for folks who don't necessarily have the resources, about what having a clear legal framework does for the minor leagues, I guess you could call them, where there are aspiring athletes, for example, about making sure that's clear.

Would you care to comment on that?

[Tom Wright]

I would, thank you, Mr. Dubé.

Absolutely, having a consistent regulatory environment not only provides for that legal clarity, but ensures that the minimum regulatory standards of rigour are kept. I hate using the word “minimum”, because whenever we look at something, we have the resources to go beyond that, but there's a certain threshold. An organization should not be allowed to conduct a professional mixed martial arts contest anywhere in this country unless those standards are met.

In the absence of a consistent regulatory environment across the country to allow for the provinces and the municipalities to share information, you run that risk that somebody might try to cut a corner here or cut a corner there. Maybe they will only have one ringside physician. Maybe they'll only test for certain performance enhancing drugs. They might try to skirt...and only because they may not have the resources to do that.

That's one of the reasons it's so critically important that we provide for this consistent regulatory environment to be structured. One of the impediments to that structuring is the ambiguity of subsection 83(2) of the Criminal Code.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

With regard to head injuries, part of the problem as well, going back to my earlier point about solving this issue, which seems a long way off at times, is that it seems one of the debates we constantly hear, to use an example similar to your league and other sports, let's say the NHL, always revolves around protocol.

It seems protocol is at a different place when you're talking about where you're coming from in the UFC. You'll even notice—I mean, I noticed this after I started working on this issue—that in Quebec, for example, the referees have the provincial government logo on their shirts, because that's the involvement the government has in the regulation.

Is that accurate?

[Tom Wright]

Mr. Dubé, that's absolutely accurate. It is one of the distinctions between our professional sport and other professional leagues. It is that arm's-length third party oversight that I think is critically important.

I'l give you a hypothetical example. We know how much of an icon Georges St-Pierre is for our sport, and I can tell you how important he is to our league. Let's say he's injured. I may want him to compete in a month. I may want him to go and compete in Winnipeg, because I know if he competes in Winnipeg, he'll do tremendously well and our business will do tremendously well. But it's not our decision. The decision is made by the regulatory commission that is overseeing the competition.

After every one of our competitions, the commissions will come out and they'll put an athlete under a suspension. It could be a 30-day, a 60-day, or a 90-day suspension, depending on what happened. That athlete is not even allowed to train with contact until such a time as he has been released by that commission.

The commissions share information, and not only among themselves in Canada; they're part of a global organization that shares that information. If an athlete's been injured in, say, Quebec, and tries to fight in Alberta, he's not allowed to, because the commissions share that information.

Now, if he happened to be a hockey player and he happened to be the best player on my team, and I'm going into the playoffs and I need him to play, I'm somewhat conflicted if I'm the coach; I really want Mr. Leef to compete.

That's the distinction.