Justice Committee on Dec. 10th, 2013

[Rob Cunningham]

This is something the European Union just announced they were signing last week. It was under negotiation for several years. The WHO Framework Convention on Tobacco Control is an international treaty. In the same way the Kyoto protocol applies to climate change, this applies to tobacco. Canada was a leader in the original negotiations between 2000 and 2003. Of course, Canada has been a leader in tobacco control globally for some time. Because contraband itself is an inherently international issue, parties felt this was a tool that might be able to assist.

Among the measures in there are ones for tracking and tracing. There's an obligation on parties to document the roots of where tobacco came from, for it to be marked, and to document where it is going, and where it is diverted, in the same way a Purolator package might be tracked at different stages of distribution. There are different timeframes for implementation.

There are other obligations with respect to international cooperation, with respect to licensing, and so on. The Canadian delegation feels this is very feasible for Canada to implement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner is Mr. Brown from the Conservative Party.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I know we touched on this a bit, but could you provide more detail on the chemical content of these illegal cigarettes and the immediate and long-term health effects from these contraband products?

[François Damphousse]

They're the same as legal tobacco products. They're not adding any kinds of chemicals or additives or anything of that sort. The problem is the combustion of a tobacco leaf. The tobacco leaf itself is poisonous. It contains natural nicotine. It contains nitrosamines, which is the most potent carcinogen that we have in tobacco.

You grow a tobacco leaf; you shred it and put it in a cigarette. Being either contraband or legal cigarettes, it's the same thing. You burn it and it will liberate 4,000 chemicals, of which approximately 50 are carcinogens. There's no difference. Health Canada reviewed them to check that. They tested them to see if they were more lethal than the regular cigarettes, and they're the same thing.

That's the principle that people need to understand. It's the combustion of tobacco leaves that creates the problem. It's the dirtiest device that we have to administer nicotine to consumers; whether it is from contraband or legal makes no difference.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

We heard last week from some witnesses about concerns with contraband tobacco being associated with other forms of crime.

Can you think of any concerns along that realm, and things that may contribute to the addiction to other drugs?

[Rob Cunningham]

There's certainly some evidence that cigarette smoking by youth can be a gateway to other substances. You learn how to smoke cigarettes; you learn how to smoke other things.

There have been repeated reports, for some years, that the distribution channels for people involved in transporting contraband tobacco is that they may bring contraband tobacco into Canada, but when they go back to the United States they may bring drugs. Within Canada there are distribution systems, and on reserves, where there's this tremendous combination of illegal activity for multiple products.

[François Damphousse]

There's another issue as well. Many people who are engaged in illicit drugs basically turn toward contraband tobacco because it is a far easier buck to make and the penalties are lower than for engaging in illicit drugs.

The equation is quite easy for them. They switched, saying they could make a lot of money by selling contraband tobacco. Even if they're caught, there's nothing that's going to happen to them, or virtually nothing. The fines are just going to be the cost of doing business. They'll pay them because they're making so much money selling these cigarettes.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

That's also a significant revenue source for criminal organizations—

[François Damphousse]

Yes.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

—so it breeds the larger problem.

We realize that this is one part of the larger puzzle. What other programs have your organization been involved in or observed that have proven effective, or could prove effective?

[Rob Cunningham]

Our organization is involved in various education campaigns, smoking cessation programs.

The federal government is to be commended for Bill C-32 with respect to flavours, and for introducing the new picture-based health warnings that have a toll-free quit line. These are very significant measures, by national comparison.

With respect to flavoured tobacco, some new products have since been put on the market, and we would certainly support a government going further to ban all flavoured tobacco products and follow the models of Ontario and Alberta.

There's a series of other measures that could be implemented as part of a comprehensive federal tobacco control strategy. Among those is plain packaging. It was introduced in Australia and was very encouraging.

There's a series of further measures, in terms of a strategy that could be implemented.

[Manuel Arango]

If I could add one comment to underscore what Mr. Cunningham said, plain packaging is the next big key thing that we need to do in tobacco control.

The other thing I would point to is that we did have an investment previously in public awareness campaigns. I think it was about $10 or $13 million that we put in annually, and we don't have that in place right now. Bringing that back to life, I think, would be very useful—putting dollars back into public awareness campaigns to combat tobacco consumption.

[François Damphousse]

To add specifically on contraband, we have been involved in this issue for many years. Education alone won't cut it. We've been advocating for serious or effective policy measures. We can't do that. It's up to governments to implement those policies and enforce them. The three of us have been involved for 15 years in trying to convince governments of some of the measures that they need to bring forward.

Rob was talking about the international illicit protocol, and both Rob and I have been attending the meetings for the negotiations of the protocol. That's a way that we are involved to push for these policies to curb contraband. It's been working. Canada is a model in terms of success in reducing contraband tobacco.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our final questioner on this panel is Mr. Jacob from the New Democratic Party.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here this morning.

Mr. Arango said that young people get addicted to cigarettes for at least 20 years.

My question is for all the witnesses, starting with Mr. Arango. Is Bill C-10 a solution? Will it help reduce tobacco use in young people?

It's important to note that a number of witnesses told us that, as with clothing, young people are attracted to brand-name cigarettes, legal cigarettes, particularly flavoured cigarettes.

We know that fear campaigns aren't a solution. Young people are drawn to danger, alcohol, speed, and so on.

Will Bill C-10 help reduce tobacco use in young people? What might the solution be? What do you think, Mr. Arango?

[Manuel Arango]

As indicated earlier it's definitely part of the solution. You have to have some deterrents as Mr. Damphousse said. If you simply have fines that go unpaid that's not going to help the issue at all. It's definitely part of the solution. I would say that the branding is obviously going to appeal to youth, which you don't have with contraband cigarettes. However, the big issue with contraband cigarettes is the low prices and youth. We definitely know there's price sensitivity with youth. The key factor is definitely price. With contraband you're going to have low-price cigarettes.

You absolutely have to address it. We can't kid ourselves. As always, you need to have a multi-pronged approach.

[François Damphousse]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Jacob.

Price is a key factor in the lure of tobacco products for youth. The fact that contraband cigarettes are on the market is a very strong incentive for youth.

Contraband makes up 15% of the Quebec market. The focus shouldn't solely be on the contraband market; there is still a legal market, as Ms. Doucas tried to explain. Legal tobacco companies continue to target kids. The court rendered a decision on that. Companies challenged the federal government's Tobacco Act, and the court recognized that tobacco product manufacturers were targeting kids by offering flavours and making cigarette packaging attractive. Those practices need to be addressed, studied and regulated. We're talking about the legal industry here.

In that respect, the Association québécoise des dépanneurs en alimentation is a front, a group whose sole aim is to draw the attention of elected officials to contraband and, as a result, to disregard the legal market. However, 85% of cigarettes are sold on the legal market. So we need to continue to pay attention to that.

That doesn't mean that contraband is not still a priority for health groups. All of it needs to be addressed. That's why we're talking about a comprehensive approach.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Cunningham, what do you think?

[Rob Cunningham]

I agree with Mr. Damphousse. Most of the cigarettes and tobacco products used by adolescents are legal. A range of measures and an overall strategy are needed to decrease tobacco use. Federal and provincial legislation needs to be strengthened and more effort needs to be made to take on contraband.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you very much.

This question is for all three of you. Will Bill C-10 be a sufficient initiative to fight against tobacco use among Canadians? If not, what do you suggest?

[François Damphousse]

Bill C-10 is very important because it provides police forces with additional tools to do their job. I think it will have an impact on contraband. For example, as mentioned a number of times, contraband measures should include the control of inputs to prevent illicit manufacturers from getting supplies.

As for the legal market, we think the most important measures for reducing tobacco use would be generic packaging and eliminating flavours from combustion products. Considering these two measures would be very important. Australia just adopted something similar. The fact that the tobacco industry was strongly against it is a clear indication that it will work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Gentlemen, that's your time. Thank you very much for joining us. We'll be dealing with this on a clause-by-clause basis on Thursday morning, so you're welcome to join us again to see how that goes.

Just before we go, madame, there's a request for a budget for our witnesses.

[An hon. member]

I so move.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

(Motion agreed to)

Thank you very much.

We'll suspend for a minute.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to call this meeting back to order. We are continuing to deal with Bill C-10, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (trafficking in contraband tobacco).

If our panellists would join us, that would be great.

Just before we introduce the second panel, our clause-by-clause will be on Thursday morning. We're going to start at the regular time of 8:45 regardless of the House schedule, unless we're adjourned. The meeting is in Centre Block, so remember that, 8:45 a.m.

So far, committee members, you should know that three amendments have been submitted, two from an independent and one from the New Democratic Party. The timeframe is coming to a close for any independents, but of course, based on any input we get today, we'll still accept amendments from the parties at the table.

With that, for the last hour on this we have from the Ontario Campaign for Action on Tobacco, Mr. Perley; and from the Ontario Provincial Police, Chief Superintendent Gary Couture, Regional Commander, East Region Headquarters.

Gentlemen, thank you for joining us, and Mr. Perley, the floor is yours.