Evidence of meeting #22 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
My understanding is that when the standard is the lower standard, which is reasonable grounds to suspect, that's for specific, limited pieces of data as opposed to the general overriding section, which is proposed section 487.012. And under proposed section 487.012, it maintains the old standard, which is reasonable grounds to believe.
Am I correct in that distinction, and if I'm correct, why do you have a problem with the lower standard for very specific pieces of information? For example, routing information is designed to obtain information such as phone numbers, but it cannot include content; production for financial data is limited to basic financial information such as the account number and the date the account was opened.
Partner, McInnes Cooper, As an Individual
I don't have my copy of the Criminal Code, so I'll assume what you said is correct.
My concern comes from this: that we are taking reasonable grounds to suspect, which is likely a fine threshold when you're dealing with routing information, basic bank account information, and we're now applying it to what's called transmission data, which goes beyond usual telephone systems and routing systems and things like that. So it is in fact exposing more information, more information about what the individual is doing. It's not just in terms of quantity, because I create more Internet signalling data in a day than I do telephone data that tells you more; it actually goes not specifically to the content of the communications but it's much more illustrative of the individual and therefore potentially more intrusive.
I think that if you're going to go up that intrusiveness scale, you need to go up the standard scale, or you need to reduce the intrusiveness and keep that threshold. To be absolutely clear, the transmission data only includes originating IP address, maybe ending IP address, the time of the transmission, and that's that. There's nothing related to protocol information, nothing related to the nature of the communication—not content, but the nature—and nothing related to that sort of stuff.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
If these were very specific snippets of transmission data and not incredibly intrusive pieces like the examples I gave, which are phone numbers, bank account number and when the account was opened, if it's limited like that are you comfortable with the standard of reasonable grounds to suspect?
Partner, McInnes Cooper, As an Individual
Yes. If we can take the definition of transmission data and modify it such that it's at the same level of intrusiveness as those examples you just gave, then I would be satisfied with that.
Conservative
Conservative
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
Okay.
To the Boys and Girls Club, the kind of work you're doing I think is great. Do you have any courses or information that you are passing on to young people as part of your own anti-bullying strategy, and if so, could you tell us a little about that?
Vice-President, Member Services, Boys and Girls Clubs of Canada
Yes, I'd be happy to.
May 7 is national belonging day, as we have chosen to call it, for the Boys and Girls Club. It's positive. The way to counter bullying is to talk about belonging, so we have a corporate partner with which we do a belonging day.
But on a more practical level, we have a number of sessions that are held in various clubs across the country, and we have 99 clubs. Some of them are in very urban centres, some of them are in very rural communities, so the programs offered in clubs vary from one community to the next. Most clubs do homework help and some snacks and all that kind of stuff. Those are common programs across the country.
More and more we're doing digital education with young children, and more and more we're starting them younger than ever before, so most clubs are starting the digital education programs as early as six years old, grade 1. When they come to after-school programming, educational programs are available to them and as the ages increase, those programs and what's covered in them intensifies obviously so we talk about sharing intimate images. We obviously don't do that with our six-year-olds, but we started doing it as early as with our 12-year-olds.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
You talked about some of your restorative justice programs and things like that. Do you find there's a particular profile for what we like to call a cyberbully, or is it just sort of any kid can end up making a poor choice? What's been your experience with that?
Alumnus, Boys and Girls Clubs of Canada
Personally, from what I've seen in some of the kids we work with, I guess maybe there is a distinction between a kid who sends out an image…not to try to bully, per se, but because he landed on this image, was talking to some friends about it, got pressure—“Oh, yes, send it to us”—and sent it out. For those cases, it's anyone and everyone, from as young as 12 or 13 years old sometimes to as old as those who are finishing high school and going into post-secondary.
For cyberbullying per se, I couldn't say I've profiled a certain individual or a certain type of person who would take this on and would be of that nature, but....
Vice-President, Member Services, Boys and Girls Clubs of Canada
The only thing I would add is that we often work with the bullies as well as those being bullied. Although there isn't a traditional profile of any kind, often these are kids who have had just a tough time, who haven't built up the confidence. It often stems from a lack of confidence, and it's a way to gain respect. It's many of the same patterns that lead young people to join gangs. It's a way to gain respect, it's a way to feel some strength, to feel some power.
So we work a lot with kids who we've identified as having some bullying...who themselves are being the bullies. We work with them to look at what's creating those behaviours and how to put that in reverse, if you wish.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Thank you very much for those questions and those answers.
Our next questioner is from the New Democratic Party, Monsieur Jacob.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. My thanks also to the witnesses for joining us today.
My first question goes to the representatives from the Boys and Girls Clubs of Canada.
Could you tell me whether you were consulted as Bill C-13 was being developed?
Vice-President, Member Services, Boys and Girls Clubs of Canada
Not really. We reached out to some extent and we had a few meetings, but I feel that the consultation was somewhat limited. However, we greatly appreciated the opportunity to present a brief on the bill.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
I see that you are working to develop appropriate programs for young people on cyberbullying. As I understand it, it is a work in progress. Has there been an increase in the resources you need across the country?
Vice-President, Member Services, Boys and Girls Clubs of Canada
You can see me smile. Yes, there has been an increase in the resources for those programs because the needs are increasing and changing very quickly. The additional resources mostly come from large corporate partners, companies, that are helping us with our work. Unfortunately, in no case has there been an increase in funding from any level of government.
