Justice Committee on May 6th, 2014

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

You mentioned affronts to privacy that Bill C-13 could give rise to. Could you tell us what your perception is there?

[Marlene Deboisbriand]

My answer is along the same lines as my two colleagues who have testified today. For us the affront to privacy is the same for young people as it is for adults. The difference is that kids are less aware than adults of the fact that an element in the bill itself affects privacy. Most kids are not aware of it, nor are they aware of the flexibility that the bill establishes or of the possible repercussions on their privacy as teenagers or young adults.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you. You also mentioned the importance of education and of restorative justice. Could you talk to me about the importance of prevention as well?

[Marlene Deboisbriand]

I talked about that with one of your committee colleagues just now. In terms of cyberbullying, we are doing a lot of work with kids who have been victims of it. But we are also working with kids who are doing the bullying themselves. In order to prevent it and to stop it from happening again, it is important to work with the bullies too.

Things are changing quickly. We are seeing a lot of cyberbullying among girls. Often people think that it is a phenomenon among boys, but it does not just affect boys. Girls are not just victims of bullying, they are bullies too. More and more, we are working with girls as well as boys, basically.

For us, education is, of course, directed at the young people themselves. However, an element of the education is for the parents and families of those young people. We are often working in areas with lots of newcomers. The parents are not always as technologically advanced as their children are. So it is important to do a lot of work with everyone around those young people so that they understand the consequences of bullying, their actions, sharing photos, and so on.

So our approach to education involves everyone around the young people, including the young people themselves.

[Fahd Alhattab]

Just quickly, to speak to the education point, the reason we really focus on education is that we focus on the root causes of why someone would cyberbully. Why would somebody send a photo? Why would someone feel pressured to share the photo?

The example we use with a lot of our youth workers is this. Let's say I give you a very complicated math problem and tell you that if you don't solve it, I'm going to punish you. If your skills aren't there, you won't solve it, no matter what the punishment is and no matter how severe it is. Even if I say I'll give you $1 million to solve this math question, the likelihood is that if you don't have the skills, you won't solve it.

It's the same problem. A lot of times it's a lack of skill. It's a lack of understanding and a lack of education that a lot of these kids have, and no matter what we inspire them with or what the consequences may be, if that education piece is missing, it won't change anything.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

My next question is for Mr. Fraser.

Could you sum up for me, in order of priority, the problems with Bill C-13 that you mentioned to us in your presentation?

[David Fraser]

I think it's probably dangerous to ask me to summarize Bill C-13 or my concerns.

[An hon. member]

You have one minute.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[David Fraser]

Thank you very much.

This is a complicated issue that we're looking at. The cyberbullying part is a complicated phenomenon with a lot of moving parts. We've heard a whole lot of nuances. Police investigative powers is a complicated question because we need to make sure that the balance is struck right. The police need to be able to do their jobs. They have an absolutely critical role to play in our society.

We also have fundamental freedoms that are inherent in how we want to organize ourselves in this society. So in both cases, it's a matter of getting the balance right. Cyberbullying, the distribution of intimate images without consent in order to harm somebody, harms people and causes problems, and we want to, in the right circumstances, punish the right people.

In the second half of the bill, the second three quarters of the bill, we want to actually give the police the appropriate powers in the right circumstances with the right oversight to do that. We're dealing with some complicated, nuanced questions with a lot of moving parts—this fits together with child pornography, and the production order powers fit together with search warrants and other things like that—so this committee has a daunting task in front of it, over the next probably five weeks or so, to try to get both of those parts right.

I would suggest you spend five weeks on one, and then five weeks on the other, but that's going to ruin your summer.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much for those questions and those answers.

Our next questioner is from the Conservative Party, Mr. Brown.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for the Boys and Girls Club. One thing that I think we haven't spoken a lot about today, and that I thought you could provide insights into, involves the impacts of cyberbullying and how frequent it is.

I think Ms. Guthrie spoke about how increasingly frequent it's becoming, but I'm sure you see that in your clubs.

Perhaps you could speak to, one, how frequent it is, and give us insights from what you've observed; and two, the impacts it has on youth.

[Marlene Deboisbriand]

Do you want to start?

[Fahd Alhattab]

Yes.

We actually did a fun project with some of the youth. They created a video on cyberbullying and anti-bullying within their clubhouse, which was a great project to get them to learn more about it. But what we came to realize was that a very high percentage of youth, close to 80%, are affected by cyberbullying.

There's the fact that we have our cellphones with us all the time. We like to discourage them to use a cellphone at the Boys and Girls Club, but even at the Boys and Girls Club, when you feel welcome and you're at a place where you belong, you could be receiving messages that are affecting you, and that are affecting you in your physical place, when you're receiving them virtually. From being at home, from being at clubhouses and being at schools, which could all be very nurturing environments and have very strong role models, sometimes the difficulty is in their pocket, with the cyberbullying.

It affects the children and the youth in their schooling. It affects them in their relationships with others. I think it goes to the point my colleague made about confidence. Confidence is hard to measure, but you can see a huge difference between the kid who's confident in themselves and their abilities and the kid who is constantly being bullied and doesn't have that same charisma to them.

[Marlene Deboisbriand]

The only thing I would add is that the numbers are a little misleading. Again, it depends on how you define “cyberbullying”. In the context of this bill, there is a definition. When we use the 80% or 85% number in terms of children and youth affected by cyberbullying, we are no longer talking about sexting and sharing of intimate images. We're also talking about people just being mean.

When I talked about girls being the perpetrators, often it's not about sexting or about sharing images; it's about being very mean. It's what some of us, depending on our age, used to experience in the schoolyard. Now it's with you 24/7, because it's in your pocket, your purse, or your knapsack. The numbers can be pretty staggering when you include just being mean versus....

In our clubs we tend to see less of what I would call extreme cyberbullying, what our colleagues referred to as sexual assault online. Those kinds of things are less prevalent, because our kids are in our clubs and are in a safe place and are busy experiencing programming. So they tend to have smaller numbers.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

I have a follow-up question for Ms. Guthrie.

You mentioned that in the bill there were aspects toward cyberbullying that you really liked. Your concern was that there was too much in the bill, but I wanted you to highlight the parts you liked. I think it would be helpful to know the parts of the bill that you thought were very helpful.

[Steph Guthrie]

First of all, I was glad to see that the provisions around cybersexual assault were added adjacent to “voyeurism” in the Criminal Code. I do see a lot of parallels between these two types of behaviour. I think they fit together, and I think that was an appropriate place for it.

I also appreciate that it's written into the bill that the subject of the image needs to have.... If they had a reasonable expectation of privacy at the time the image was captured, in addition to at the time the image was shared or the offence was committed, I think that by having these two things in there, you're covering a lot of bases and making it relatively airtight.

I liked a lot of things about it. It was primarily the “being reckless” as to whether someone gave their consent that I took issue with.

The other thing that I think could potentially be a problem is in proposed paragraph 162.1(2)(c). I am concerned about the latitude with which a judge might interpret whether a subject had a reasonable expectation of privacy at the time the offence was committed.

As an advocate in this area, I have seen a lot of people try to pursue justice for these things, whether through harassment legislation or through child pornography legislation. Having law enforcement officers.... I've seen it, certainly in the States and potentially here, as well. In some cases, even judges will just decide, because they personally think you shouldn't have shared those images in the first place, you wouldn't have had a reasonable expectation of privacy at the time the offence was committed. So I think there's potential for it to be interpreted.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Ms. Guthrie, I appreciate your perspectives on the judiciary and law enforcement, but I want to ask a follow-up question. Are you aware of the federal-provincial-territorial report that was released in July of 2013 calling for additional measures? In particular, it called for giving law enforcement better tools to deal with the gaps.

I'm wondering if you are aware of the report and if you support the recommendations that were made in that report.

[Steph Guthrie]

I actually have not read that report. I'll have to check it out. Thank you for flagging that for me.

I think for me, a lot of the time, the issue is less with the tools that are available to law enforcement and more with the specific attitudes that individual law enforcement officers hold and potentially attitudes that are encouraged by the culture of law enforcement that often blames female victims of sexual offences for the offence rather than the perpetrator.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those answers.

Our next questioner, based on the schedule, is from the Conservative Party again, Mr. Dechert. I'm going to try to hold you to five minutes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll try to be brief.

Mr. Fraser, I'm still concerned and confused, frankly, about your concern about the release of an ISP provider or another entity from civil liability if they voluntarily disclose some information in response to a request from police authority. Forgive me, I'm more of an analogue than a digital kind of guy, as I suspect most parents are in Canada.

Let me phrase it in a way that I understand. If I see some suspicious activity around my neighbour's house, I can pick up the phone, dial 911, speak to the police, and tell them that perhaps someone is trying to break into my neighbour's house. They investigate. I'm wrong. It's the gardener. It's a repairman. Do I expose myself to any civil liability by doing that?

[David Fraser]

If you acted in good faith, no you don't.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So if the police come to me and ask me if I've noticed any suspicious activity around my neighbour's house recently, and I mention that I saw somebody acting suspiciously there yesterday, that there was a car parked in the driveway, and I give them the licence plate number, which I noted down, they go and they find that person. He was not in fact attempting to break into the house, but again, he was the repairman or the gardener, etc. Am I civilly liable for providing that information to the police when they ask?

[David Fraser]

No you're not, for two reasons. First—