Evidence of meeting #32 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prostitution.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Donald Piragoff  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy Sector, Department of Justice
Nathalie Levman  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

The survey itself was not particular to this question of prostitution only, and so there is a normal six-month time period that is invoked for when that polling information will be released.

I should note for the record, Mr. Casey, that you're aware there have been other surveys done and other polling information available that has been released or is in the public domain.

I also want to provide a correction. I said there will be a technical bill presented to the committee. There will be a technical paper that was produced by the department, and that technical paper is available in French and English. I'm informed that it will be tabled with this committee by leave, and it will be provided to you so that you will have it for your deliberations this week.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Mr. Minister, do you have the power to abridge the time in which we see this $175,000 Ipsos Reid survey? Do you have the power to give that to us before we examine all these witnesses?

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

There is a six-month timeframe that we will respect.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

So you have the power, but you're deciding not to exercise it?

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

I didn't say that. I said we'll respect the six-month timeframe.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Do you have the power to abridge it?

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

We'll release it when the six-month timeframe is up.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Is that a yes or a no?

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

We'll release it when the six-month timeframe is up, Mr. Casey.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

You won't tell me whether or not you have the power to abridge it, but if you do, you're not going to exercise it.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

What I'm telling you is that you'll have the information when the six-month period is up.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Mr. Minister, I requested that Ipsos Reid appear as a witness before this committee, but they're not on the witness list. Did your office have anything to do with that?

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Absolutely not. We don't control the witness list. That's entirely within the purview of the committee.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

When you had an issue before you that was destined to be challenged before the courts—you'll remember a case by the name of Nadon—you took the eminently sensible approach of getting outside opinions.

It seems to me, Minister, that you are in the exact same situation now with this bill. Have you sought outside opinions with respect the constitutionality or an eventual challenge of this legislation?

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Well, I think you would have to acknowledge that there was a bit of a difference there, Mr. Casey. We already have a decision from the Supreme Court of Canada, in Bedford. That was certainly not the case with the Nadon appointment. There was very much an open question on the subject of eligibility, so much so that we had Federal Court judges applying, and so much so that a justice committee itself recommended names of those who were deemed eligible. In addition, we had the Supreme Court precedent of judges who had been appointed from the Federal Court, albeit from other provinces.

I would describe it as a distinguishable difference between what we have before us now, with a bill that has been drafted in direct response to a Supreme Court decision....

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

So have you or have you not sought outside expert opinions with respect to the constitutionality of this legislation?

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

We have very expert opinions within the Department of Justice that we feel adequately respond to the Supreme Court decision. We relied on those as well as the consultation that took place, as well as previous precedent from Parliament and previous case law. As a result, I think we've produced what I view is a very sound, sensible, practical response to Bedford.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

If I understand your answer, you haven't sought outside opinions because you're comfortable with the opinions you've received from Department of Justice officials.

Will we see them?

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

I'm very confident that you will have adequate opportunity to question Justice officials who are here with us now, and who have provided the backing, the underpinnings, for this legislation. And yes, I am confident in our bill.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

One of the provisions in the bill talks about places where children reasonably would be present.

My question to you, Minister, is whether this always criminalizes someone who is under the age of 18 because that person would always be somewhere where someone under 18 would reasonably be. I realize that's a convoluted way of asking it, but my question is this. Do you not agree that those under 18 are in need of protection and that criminalizing them isn't the best way to protect them?

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

To answer your previous hypothesis—and I'm loath to be drawn into these hypotheses because there will be judicial interpretation, without a doubt—do persons under the age of 18 deserve, and should the public expect, special protection? Yes. That's why we have specific sections of the Criminal Code that were not affected by the Bedford decision that are designed to protect particularly vulnerable persons under the age 18.

I don't agree with your scenario that anybody under the age of 18 engaging in prostitution will always be subject to criminal charges. I don't think that's correct. But it's reasonable to expect that a person under the age of 18 could be present in certain factual scenarios in certain locations, yes.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Thank you.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Our next questioner, from the Conservative Party, is Mr. Wilks.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

With regard to the new sections being brought forth under Bill C-36 in relation to police officers—because that's where my domain is—what does this do with regard to police officers enforcing and/or assisting them in this area of their work?

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS

Mr. Wilks, first let me acknowledge your long service as a police officer. I think you would agree that in settings where prostitution is prevalent, most police have attempted for years to assist prostitutes in a way that avoids their criminalization or further exploitation by making them aware of programs that would assist them to exit prostitution. This in essence creates, I would suggest, a greater and more visible framework around those efforts to help prostitutes exit. It also puts in place a clearer delineation between those who are selling sexual services and those who are purchasing them. So the predatory, exploitative nature, in my view, is on full display in this bill. It provides police and the public and the courts with clarity from Parliament's perspective. From this democratic, elected institution of Parliament, we believe it was incumbent upon us to respond to what would clearly be a very confusing and dangerous situation had we not responded to the Bedford case.

I think this legislation will give police greater tools, greater ability, to enforce the law in a way that puts the emphasis on the predators, on the pimps and the johns, on those who exploit vulnerable people, on those purchasers wherever that transaction takes place. The police will then, of course—and you're much more familiar with this than most—exercise their discretion and use their investigative techniques. At the same time we hope, in relatively short order, that we will be able to have these programs up and running and available to help off-ramp those who are involved in prostitution to educational programs, to treatment facilities if there are addiction problems, to help with rehabilitation, to help individuals leave what we think is an inherently dangerous situation.