Evidence of meeting #36 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prostitution.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Chief Executive Officer and Legal Counsel, Sisters Inside
I agree with Ms. Pate. It has to go hand in hand. The law is not our saviour. It is about services that need to be provided to people who are marginalized and disadvantaged, so that we do have access to accommodation, health, education, and a guaranteed income. These are all very important. The law will not protect us or set us free as one piece of a framework; we need to look at social services across the board for all our members of society. So $20 million wouldn't even touch the side.
What happens in Australia, which is concerning, is that when money is allocated it usually goes to law enforcement, and that does not assist. That actually criminalizes more women and girls.
Founder, Rising Angels
I personally want to see decriminalization in all these areas because it does come down to having these things available for them, that they can go to social agencies and have the help they need and the exit programs available. And, yes, $20 million is a drop in the bucket, but it's a beginning. That's more than we've had.
Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre
It's a great question, and it's a question that we have debated in our office as well with the women we serve, and our board and volunteers and staff. First of all, I'm very hopeful that we will see the women decriminalized. I'm hopeful that there will be an amendment to that. We're going to continue to push towards that until the very end.
But our board of directors has made a decision to support the bill, even if that is not eliminated. The example that has been used by our board is that of domestic violence and the regulations around mandatory charging. At that time, our agency actually advocated for separate legislation for victims of domestic violence, which would recognize that situation. We were asked at the time if we would still support the mandatory charging, and we said yes, even though it didn't go far enough.
President, Native Women's Association of Canada
I really like Françoise's question. Your name is Françoise, right?
President, Native Women's Association of Canada
I have been involved in politics with aboriginal women for 20 years. Unless I am mistaken, since 2006, the Conservative approach has been all or nothing. It's difficult to have something in between the two extremes.
However, we have approached the Minister of Justice, Mr. MacKay, knowing that the Conservatives were fully and clearly refusing to launch a national public inquiry. Our organization was proactive, and since we are women of action, we proposed to set up a discussion table around which various departments could sit down with the Native Women's Association of Canada to talk about prevention. We also wanted people who are part of the prostitution world to be included in a national socio-economic action plan.
We think that $20 million is peanuts, given the fact that aboriginal issues are lagging well behind. That lag is even larger when it comes aboriginal women. Basically, you can imagine that it will be difficult to divide the pie.
This message is intended for our friends from the Conservative government. The table was suggested by the Native Women's Association of Canada at the meetings of the Special Committee on Violence Against Indigenous Women. It was also proposed to Minister MacKay in order to re-establish a dialogue between aboriginal women and this government. That issue has to be taken into consideration. It's a must, as it is very important.
Had this question been put to me when I was 28 years old, I would have flat out refused. Now that I am 42, I know how things work within government. We sometimes have to swallow certain things unwillingly. Nevertheless, that gives us the energy to continue to observe, lobby and maintain the momentum on issues related to the rights of aboriginal women.
You know that I have made this a personal issue.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
That's our time for questions and answers on this round.
Now we go to the Conservative Party and Mrs. Smith.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have two questions that have been coming back to me all the time, and I want to start with Megan Walker please.
I hear the argument about the nice normal johns of Canada, that they are nice people, and that prostitution is an industry and you are just servicing the johns. Could you comment about what you know about the nice johns.
Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre
It's interesting that you ask that question because there is this amazing project that actually started in Europe, the Invisible Men project, and it was actually released yesterday in Canada on social media. It's this phenomenal project that shows the invisible man, the white mask, with actual dialogue from johns on their experiences with prostituted women or with women.
I printed one off yesterday just so I could relay what johns are saying. These are the good guys, these wonderful men who are buying women. I thought it would be interesting to relay information to you about one. There are lots of them available on Twitter if you go to the Invisible Men project or on Facebook.
These are the words of a john: She is black, no Métis, no blue eyes, pictures are either very well done or it is not her, hard to tell. At some point I realized that she is a bit slow. That made me feel like a jackass. Serviced myself quickly and left. I felt so ashamed that I think I will need some time to recover. I mean having sex with a handicap is a new low right down there with having sex with a pregnant crack whore, laugh out loud. But that's what happens when you don't take your time hunting and putting in the effort, instead of getting a fox you get a rat.
This is a perfect example of what men, johns, buyers, punters, whatever you would like to call them, feel about women in prostitution.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Yes, so when we talk about it being an industry that's what these women face daily.
Katarina, we keep saying in the sex industry they need everything legalized because they have to screen their clients. So can you tell us about screening the clients? Can you tell us your feelings about criminalizing the perpetrators, criminalizing the buying of sex, those two things?
Founder, Rising Angels
First, I'm going to address the screening of clients. I think it is ridiculous. There is no way in a short matter of time to decide whether or not that customer is a stand-up person or if he is not going to go crazy in a room or attack you.
You have to understand that when you're behind closed doors, whether it's car doors, hotel room doors, I don't care, that is where you are really going to know what is really going on here. That is when the client is going to let his true colours out, show you what he wants. That's where I've seen a lot of violence occur. If they pay for something that you are not comfortable doing then they become violent.
So I don't think in a matter of five or ten minutes you are going to be able to tell what anybody's intentions are. So I think that's just a load of baloney.
Sorry, what was your next question?
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
[Inaudible-Editor] for the first time in Canada we are making the buying of sex illegal.
Founder, Rising Angels
I think that's an amazing stand that we are willing to take, because men have for so long gotten away with buying women like we're burgers, that you can order us at the drive-through with what you want on your burger. It's the same as you can order a blonde, a brunette, size, height and all of that stuff. This has been allowed to go on forever. My fears with this going like that is we have an up and coming generation of boys who are so exposed to all of the sexualization in the media.
My son is 12 years old and he has already been exposed to pornography by his friends on his iPhone. This is what we're seeing. Twenty years ago pornography was not as violent as it is today. Now it's about violence and making women hurt when you're having sex with them. This is what our kids and the men are starting to think is normal. I really think the men need to be held accountable to realize that people aren't commodities, that you can't just buy and sell human beings, period.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you.
I have a question for NWAC, an association that I have great respect for. My son is in the RCMP and is married to an Ojibwa girl, and he speaks Ojibwa and Saulteaux actually. I've had a lot of interaction with the aboriginal population; my baby grandchildren are half and half.
Having said, I am very interested in your wise comment that it takes some time and you start to build and gain momentum. Do you feel as an organization that Bill C-36 is a really good first step to build that momentum going in the right direction? What are your feelings about it?
President, Native Women's Association of Canada
You gained some feathers with your family.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Well, can I tell you that I have the red shawl too, then? I do.
President, Native Women's Association of Canada
If I may, I will answer the question in French because I am not very familiar with the jargon used in English in this field. I would say that the bill you are introducing is not perfect.
Let's be honest. I think that criminalizing people who are involved in the sex industry is a huge step. However, I am asking you and imploring you to make sure that women and aboriginal women are not criminalized.
A number of studies have shown that, in Canada, aboriginal women constitute the poorest and the most vulnerable group. In order to feed their family or support their drug addiction, they could have relations in a specific environment and they would be criminalized under this bill.
So I am asking you to take into consideration all the problems aboriginal women face—racism, discrimination, extreme poverty, violence, lateral violence and systemic violence.
I am asking you to consider this issue from that perspective for the sake of your grandchildren and the rest of Canada.
In-House Legal Counsel, Director, International Affairs and Human Rights, Native Women's Association of Canada
Just to add to what Michèle said, we want to see a holistic approach to this. We want to see economic development. All of the aboriginal economic development that this government is making into the aboriginal community is largely benefiting men. We want the social supports in place for women to access training and skill building and have true options for livable income rather than prostitution.
We need to send the message to Canadians that aboriginal women are not disposable and they're worth more, as are your grandchildren. We need to see the government put their money where their mouth is in terms of supports for a future for aboriginal women and girls.
