Evidence of meeting #36 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prostitution.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
I heard you talk about hopes and dreams. These are the kinds of things that if not formally representing all aboriginal women including those in prostitution would certainly reflect a lot of the aspirations of the women.
Ms. Edwards.
2:25 p.m.
In-House Legal Counsel, Director, International Affairs and Human Rights, Native Women's Association of Canada
I would just add to that. NWAC has recently completed a research report on aboriginal women and sex trafficking, and we're waiting for the Canadian Women's Foundation to release their report so that we can release ours, because it was a sub report. We are very proud. We worked for over a year and a half, and NWAC has worked for at least a decade with our members, our constituents across Canada, throughout communities where we have dealt with aboriginal women who are in prostitution, who have been in prostitution, who were sex trafficked as children and then deemed to be prostituted because they came of age after being sex-exploited and trafficked for eight years. These are not our views. These are the views of the women that we're bringing forward, the many women who have given us the mandate at our annual general assembly yearly resolutions on this issue to come forward with our position as part of the coalition and to the Supreme Court of Canada in the Bedford case. This is not advocating for the view of 2% or 3% of aboriginal women.
In fact, I would say that we should not argue on behalf of the 2% or 3% of those who state that it is their right to do this and thereby sacrifice the 97% who will be unprotected and live in violent conditions.
I just wanted to back that up and say that one of our key informants had dealt with 4,000 victims of violence in her 20 years of experience. We had very valuable, key informants whom we dealt with, and our aboriginal women are our best informants on the ground, and they're the ones who have told us what the reality is for them on this issue.
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Thank you.
Ms. Walker, I'd like to thank you for addressing the point that prostitution has always been around, because we hear so often that we're not really going to change anything. What I'd like to hear instead is that while the goal might to be to eradicate it, even a substantial reduction is a qualified success.
I wanted to talk to you specifically about those exit supports that the London Abused Women's Centre is working on. You mentioned that they are directed by the women themselves. I want to know what that means. What types of programs do you implement, and which are most successful? What are the challenges that you face in reaching out to women?
2:25 p.m.
Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre
Thank you so much for that question.
The London Abused Women's Centre's philosophy is that we would never tell a woman what to do. We would always offer her choices, explain the options available to her, and then support her in whatever option she decided.
We are a voluntary agency. We don't support mandated services for women, because we know that women need to be able to come in on their own accord when they are ready. Just as leaving an abusive intimate partner is a process, so too is leaving prostitution. Women may make attempts to leave, re-enter, and make attempts to leave. It is a process, and women need to do that on their own terms.
What women have identified to us is that they need a range of services. They need long-term women's centre trauma-informed services, and generally request that those services be provided by educated survivors. They would like to be able to speak to somebody who's informed.
They oftentimes come to us and require either residential rehab services or substance abuse services to overcome some of those challenges. They identify to us that another option for them may be family reintegration, that for so long they have had no access and been isolated from their families. That's important. Many of the women who come to us have had no access to secondary or post-secondary education and would like to really explore their dreams, fulfill those dreams, whether it be in teaching, nursing, city planning, or whatever it might be. They need access to those resources.
A range of services is provided. We sit with women. We do an extensive intake with them. We determine where they are at and what the priority is for them at that time. That priority can change. When we meet with them the next week, they may say they're going in this direction now. As well, because of that link between domestic violence and prostitution, we're also trying to address those issues. So many women have lost their children, and they are also suffering the enormous grief of that.
It is a range of services. We have great success. We have great success mostly in helping women with referral services to addiction services, helping women reintegrate with their families. We live in a very generous community that has supported women, once they have their adult education for secondary school, by allowing them opportunities with grants and going on and furthering their education at college or university. We have great success stories. It has to be voluntary, and it has to be led by the women themselves.
I did discuss very briefly the $20 million. Can I just discuss that really briefly again?
2:30 p.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Sure, because it's a good start. It doesn't preclude there being other announcements, just so you're aware of that.
2:30 p.m.
Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre
No, I understand that. We also do depend on our partners in the community. Our budget at the London Abused Women's Centre is around $850,000 per year. As I stated earlier, we serve about 3,300 women. We have a staff of 11. We're very busy, as you can imagine, serving that number of people. Of course, our salaries are....
Nobody complains, because at our place, nobody does our work because it's a job. It's really a passion. But there's rent and overhead, and we pay the transportation costs of the women who come to see us. We make sure they have food when they come to see us. But it is expensive to provide these services, and we want to make sure that women in prostitution have access to long-term service. They suffer incredible trauma. It's not a situation where they can come in for only six weeks. This is long-term service that we are ensuring they are engaged in.
2:30 p.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
And you know, we take this seriously as well. This government, as you may know, in the 2014 budget committed $25 million to violence against women initiatives. We're quite proud of that.
I know that a lot of talk has been about the $20 million, and I appreciate that you mentioned it. It's really the initial—
2:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Our next questioner is Madame Péclet from the New Democratic Party.
2:30 p.m.
NDP
Ève Péclet NDP La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for joining us. Your presentations were all very interesting.
I would like to express a minor concern.
An amount of $20 million works out to $4 million a year. The Premier of Manitoba was saying yesterday that his province will receive slightly under $200,000 a year. We can all agree that under $200,000 a year for a province that spends $8 million to deal with prostitution is very little. I am sorry, but that's like a slap in the face.
My question is for Ms. Pate and Ms. Edwards.
Certain provisions of the Criminal Code already criminalize human trafficking. This is mentioned in section 279.01. As for exploitation, that is covered in subsections 279.04(1) and 279.04(2). Subsection 213(1), which was struck down by the Supreme Court, criminalizes the following, and I quote: “engaging in prostitution or of obtaining the sexual services of a prostitute”.
How will Bill C-36 improve the situation? Legislation on this issue already exists. Since yesterday, all the witnesses have been talking about how troubling the situation on the ground is. What will Bill C-36 add? How will it help women in these situations? Is the $20 million amount alone supposed to help them? What will change compared with the current situation?
2:35 p.m.
NDP
2:35 p.m.
NDP
Ève Péclet NDP La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
I don't decide. Whoever wants to go first.... Okay, Mrs. Pate, and then Mrs. Edwards.
2:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
I hope we've been clear. The key point is that the message is being sent very clearly that it is not okay to buy and sell women, one.
But what will help are the broader initiatives, as well, that we talked about—the need for the funding, the need for other supports, the need for a substantive focus on equality.
The other piece that I think is vital and that we haven't talked a lot about but which have talked to the women about is that if they know.... One of the women recently said to me that if she knew she could not be criminalized at all for what she was engaged in, but that the men she was providing a sexual service to could be prosecuted, she would feel much safer. Even if she were to decide to never call the police, she would know, and he would know, that was clearly the message.
That was something I hadn't particularly thought of at that stage. But since then I have spoken to other women, and I know that some of my colleagues have as well. So I think that message is very clear.
Again, as Deb Kilroy pointed out earlier, even though we know that laws prohibiting violence against women have not stopped violence against women, it has sent a very clear message that it's not acceptable. That is an important step, a milestone, on the issue of violence against women. I would suggest that to say it is not okay to buy and sell women is vitally important.
2:35 p.m.
In-House Legal Counsel, Director, International Affairs and Human Rights, Native Women's Association of Canada
I agree.
As was mentioned, and has been mentioned before, we haven't seen the uptake on the criminalization of the men previously. We're hoping this will send a key message to Canadians that this is no longer tolerable, that we want more, and that women are not disposable. Women are worth more, and they can, if they so choose, exercise their right to criminalize the men exercising violence against them. I do see a significant difference between what existed before and what exists now.
2:35 p.m.
NDP
Ève Péclet NDP La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
But as we were discussing previously, according to the new legislation the women will still be criminalized by virtue of publicity, in public places where children might be. They are almost everywhere. If I'm walking on the streets, there could be children walking, or whatever. Wherever I am, there could be children. Coming out of the Parliament there might be children. I'm just saying that it's not....
Women will still be criminalized under the new bill. That's what I'm saying. What will it change from the previous situation? They might not be criminalized in all circumstances, but they still will be, according to the new legislation. My point is, what will it change? They will still be criminalized.
July 8th, 2014 / 2:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Thank you for clarifying that. I was making comments in addition to what I had already said. We do not support anything in the bill that would criminalize women—none of the provisions that would cause the women to potentially be criminalized.
2:40 p.m.
Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre
Further to that comment and as you know, I think the delegates who have appeared before you are almost unanimously recommending that women not be criminalized. In addition, there will be no big, miraculous differences tomorrow morning, or once the bill is passed. This is about long-term changes, shifting a culture. It's about shifting the culture for future generations. If you look at what has happened in Sweden, for instance, there has been a decrease in the number of men who are first-time buyers. The support in Sweden for the bill, for the Nordic model, is about 70%.
There's a shift in the attitude, and it's more than only the exit programs. It's about public awareness campaigns. So the goal is to ensure that girls who are growing up will know that there are more options available to them than prostitution. It's about educating boys in the future to know that women are not to be bought and sold, that women have equal rights and that women are actually human beings.