Evidence of meeting #41 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was men.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Co-Founder, Hope for the Sold
In the context of, let's say, Sweden, there are some men who will always want to pay for sex, so they'll either find a way in Sweden or they'll travel abroad. However, for the average guy, say myself, if prostitution was legal, it'd be very easy to hop out to a brothel. But if I have to get on a plane, fly to another country, come home, and then explain the bill to my wife, there's a higher bar set.
Again, we're never going to deal with all of it, but let's tackle the 80:20, the college bachelor parties. I met a guy who every Christmas takes his son to Cuba on a sex vacation, and that's their father-son bonding time. We can deal with that. If it's illegal, they wouldn't be going there. I'd love to traffic-proof every nation on earth, and I think criminalizing demand, going after demand, will deal with a large part of that.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Thank you, and thank you for making that documentary. I'm interested in seeing it as well.
Thank you very much.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Yes, with popcorn, please—butter, as well. Thank you.
My next question is for you, Ms. Big Canoe.
We heard earlier in the week from the Native Women's Association of Canada, and they used different terminology. They did not use the term “sex worker” to describe people involved in prostitution. While Ms. Audette was careful to explain that she didn't represent native women in Canada per se, she did say that she walks with them and reflects their views and their thinking.
I'm wondering about a couple of things. Do you represent, or have you represented, any aboriginal women who are involved in prostitution or who have been victims of prostitution? Do you think of aboriginal women as sex workers or prostituted women?
I have a whole bunch of questions, but let's start there.
Legal Advocacy Director, Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto
Mr. Chair, if I can answer the member's questions, they are very good questions. Thank you for asking them.
Yes, we do represent only aboriginal clients. Some of them are sex workers. Do we keep statistics on that? No, because we meet our clients where they are at. We allow our clients to self-identify. In order to meet clients where they're at, particularly in a solicitor-client relationship, we have to let them come as they are or define who they are.
When I use the word or language, “sex worker”, it's probably informed exactly by the type of work we do in representation. We actually do a large amount of victim representation through the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board and have a number of victims who are still in domestic violence. From an aboriginal perspective, we still don't see the police responding to aboriginal women around domestic violence, and a lot of times things are going through a sort of victim advocacy process.
So to echo what the president of NWAC was saying, yes, we walk with our women. I'm first nations. I come from a first nation community. I work with mostly aboriginal staff, aboriginal clients, and we have an understanding. Ours are informed in different ways. As the president of the national organization, I'm sure she has the opportunity to see more parts of the country. My experience is informed by the clients I represent, who are not just in Toronto; we do inquest work throughout the province and in other parts of the country. It's informed, and the one thing that's really important is respect for that diversity or those opinions.
I, too, do not give the voice of all aboriginal people. But Aboriginal Legal Services is known to be an ally of sex workers, and we use that word—and we choose that word—because we always accept our clients as they come to us.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Do you agree that johns should be criminalized and that the buying of sex should be illegal in Canada?
Legal Advocacy Director, Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto
That would be our opposition to the bill, that the criminalization—
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
In principle, you disagree that we should criminalize the mostly men who buy sex.
Legal Advocacy Director, Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto
Yes, because of the adverse impact it will have on sex workers. The adverse impact it will have on sex workers is the driving of the most vulnerable, the street-level sex workers or survival sex workers, into darker corners or into places where they become unsafe.
Contrary to what the Supreme Court had to say about them having the measures—and I don't say “screening” in quotations because it's an actual valid exercise. In doing that, you've pushed—
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
We've had witnesses here who've said there is no such thing as “underground” or “in dark corners” because when johns want to purchase sex, they have to find the prostitutes.
Legal Advocacy Director, Aboriginal Legal Services of Toronto
The only example I can give that I think everyone will know is Pickton, in Vancouver. When police were not prosecuting communications as long as prostitutes weren't in certain parts of town.... When you know where to find the sex, in industrial sections or down dark alleys or different places, it's out of sight of affluent neighbourhoods, but it's in dark places that put those women at risk. That's what the Supreme Court, in Bedford, also acknowledged.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Okay, thank you very much.
Thank you all for those questions and answers.
Our next questioner, from the New Democratic Party, is Mr. Jacob.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for participating in today's meeting.
My first question is for Suzanne Jay and Alice Lee, of the Asian Women Coalition Ending Prostitution.
In your opening remarks, you talked about social services, comprehensive support and systemic inequalities.
What kind of initiatives do you think the government should implement in that area? Do you have any ideas for programs or projects that should be implemented to address those systemic inequalities?
Member, Asian Women Coalition Ending Prostitution
Thank you for the question.
Bill C-36 is a very good first step in this. As for social services and remedying systemic inequalities, we've talked about providing women who enter Canada under exploitative circumstances with landed status. We also believe that a guaranteed liveable income would go a long way to preventing prostitution and addressing the vulnerabilities of women to recruitment.
Detox programs, universal child care, and settlement programs for women who are immigrating here would also decrease women's vulnerability, but also enhance their ability to participate in civil society and access their equality rights.
Did I miss anything?
Member, Asian Women Coalition Ending Prostitution
Education and access to education....
Member, Asian Women Coalition Ending Prostitution
Access to education, including English language training....
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Thank you very much.
Did you want to add anything? It seems that you don't. Okay.
My second question is for Michelle and Jared Brock.
You talked about gender equality. I would like you to elaborate on this. How can that help fight exploitation against women?
Co-Founder, Hope for the Sold
I agree, and it was addressed a little bit earlier already, that there is a systemic gender inequality present in both western countries and around the world. I don't know if I have anything else to add. I think that there are systemic things that can be put into place to equalize the playing field between men and women. I wouldn't say I'm an expert on that specifically, but I think that I would agree with anything....
Is there anything you want to add?
Co-Founder, Hope for the Sold
I think that we need to level the gender playing field. This has been discussed, obviously, by the experts on it.
When we look at the idea of decriminalizing the majority of women and criminalizing the majority of men, I think it helps to level that playing field. I think this is a good gender equality measure. We can debate the details of everything else, for sure, but I think that main hinge piece will go a long way towards creating a more equal society, and that's what we're going for here.
Co-Founder, Hope for the Sold
I think when we were in Sweden we were talking to a man and he was talking about gender equality, which is a very strong value in Sweden. He was saying that we need to start asking the question, as men, what do men have to gain from gender equality? It's a good question to ask and obviously there are some things like building stronger communities, having more fulfilling relationships, but that was an interesting question we heard in Sweden that we've been thinking about.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Thank you.
Since I have some time left, my third question will be for Keira Smith-Tague.
You talked about guaranteed income, affordable housing and accessible child care. I agree with you. However, you also talked about the insufficient amount of $20 million.
I would like you to further explain your opinion on this $20-million amount over 5 years, for the whole country.
Front-Line Anti-Violence Worker, Vancouver Rape Relief and Women's Shelter
The $20 million is not even enough for existing organizations across the country, as I said—we heard from the London Abused Women's Centre earlier this week that their budget alone for a year $800,000. It won't be enough. But what I think is completely missing is the comprehensive social supports that already need to be in place in the country, that have been erased over many years.
There have been cuts to women's centres and funding cuts all across the board for mental health services and medical services, as well as welfare cuts and legal aid cuts. So across the board women face not only the reality of often not having enough money for them and their children, but also not being able to access the criminal justice system with representation. They're not able to actually live free from violence with the realities of the conditions of women's lives. So I think we need to address that, as well as put in funding for exiting services and all the other things I named.