Justice Committee on Nov. 27th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Order.

This meeting is being videotaped. As our friends here know, this is treated as a regular committee meeting where they focus in on those who are speaking.

This is the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, meeting number 55. Pursuant to Standing Order 81(5) we're dealing with the supplementary estimates (B) this afternoon. We have a number of guests with us, but for the first hour I want to thank the Minister of Justice, the Honourable Peter MacKay, for rearranging his schedule, which I know he did to be able to be here today.

Minister MacKay, the floor is yours for an opening statement and then there'll be a round of questions.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Colleagues, thank you for the opportunity to speak before you today.

I am pleased to be this afternoon with this esteemed committee to answer questions regarding items in supplementary estimates (B) as Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

This is my 50th appearance before a parliamentary committee. Joining me today are deputy minister William F. Pentney, associate deputy minister, Pierre Legault, and, senior assistant deputy minister of policy, Donald K. Piragoff.

This has been a busy session. We have three bills that have passed through Parliament. We have three more that are approaching that stage, six in fact when we consider some that are just beginning the process, six or seven more that are in the queue, and 13 private members' bills.

As Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, I am tasked with helping ensure a fair, relevant and accessible justice system for all Canadians.

A continuing priority and challenge for all of us involved in the justice system is to ensure that all Canadians have access to justice in a timely and meaningful way. I believe this is certainly a sentiment shared by you and participants in the justice system across the country.

Governments in all jurisdictions have obligations in tackling this through multiple initiatives. At the federal level we have been providing ongoing funding for programs to provinces and territories to promote access to justice. Mr. Chair, colleagues, the Department of Justice funded and supported the work of the national Action Committee on Access to Justice in Civil and Family Matters, which brought together major stakeholders throughout our system.

The DOJ continues to promote access to family justice by working closely with its provincial and territorial colleagues. I would share with you that I recently attended the annual FPT meeting this September, and it is certainly a sentiment shared by my provincial and territorial colleagues that we continue to improve on this system. People are very motivated, as is the bench.

To that end we've renewed the funding, the grants and contributions available for supporting families experiencing separation and divorce initiatives, for three years. With this renewed funding provinces and territories can access up to $15.5 million annually for the next three years for family justice services that include mediation and support enforcement services. Non-governmental organizations can also access up to $0.5 million annually to help them inform separating and divorcing families about family law. This is a big issue, particularly given the number of unrepresented persons now in our system.

Funding for federal activities under this initiative was also renewed for two years. These activities support the department's mandate with respect to federal family laws and provide legally mandated support enforcement and divorce registry services to provinces and territories, and to all Canadians.

This initiative funds many services and projects that make it easier for separating and divorcing families to access the family justice system, as well as ensure that parents comply with their obligations under family law. An evaluation this year concluded that the initiative achieved its objectives in promoting access to the family justice system for Canadian families. I am pleased to see that we are having measurable and tangible progress, and we hope to replicate this across the entire system.

In addition to promoting access to the family justice system, our government's efforts also include two major initiatives funded under the Roadmap for Canada's Official Languages 2013-2018 to develop and enhance the vitality of official language minority communities and promote linguistic duality in the justice system.

The Department of Justice also promotes access to justice through our justice partnership and innovative program, which provides resources for projects that address access to justice, family violence, public legal education and information, and violence against aboriginal women and girls. This department plans to transfer $1.26 million earmarked for contributions from this program towards grants.

Mr. Chairman, I know you follow this type of activity very closely. This transfer is a positive move that will reduce the administrative burden on the public legal information organizations and non-governmental organizations. Ultimately, it will make it easier to access funding using a high-risk based approach and ensure that the justice system remains accessible, efficient, and effective.

On the issue of legal aid, at the federal-provincial-territorial ministers meeting I referenced, my colleagues and I reiterated our commitment for continued collaboration to strengthen legal aid and the justice system for Canadians. In these supplementary estimates, the total annual federal funding has increased by $14.4 million for 2014-15 to 2016-17. This comprises funding for immigration and refugee legal aid, court-ordered counsel in federal prosecutions, and program operations.

Part of ensuring access to justice is ensuring that Canadians are protected and that our streets and communities remain safe.

Our government is moving forward with several criminal justice initiatives in order to keep our citizens safe. It is indeed the foremost responsibility of any government.

One of these initiatives is the aboriginal justice strategy, which was renewed in budget 2014 at $22.2 million over two years. This program, operated on a cost-shared basis with provinces and territories, supports community-based justice programs that have been proven to be effective in reducing crime and providing alternatives to incarceration for less serious crimes in appropriate circumstances.

We also continue to work through the Department of Justice's youth justice fund to encourage a youth justice system that is fair and effective. This fund offers grants and contributions to various organizations. While demand for grants to support small-scale projects has declined in recent years, the demand for contributions to support multi-year pilot projects continues to increase. I can give you a number of examples, particularly in urban settings: the guns and gangs initiative, drug treatment, mental health treatment, and, particularly important for prairie provinces but I would suggest across the country, programs aimed at addressing the effects of fetal alcohol syndrome disorder. To meet the growing demand of these requests, Mr. Chairman, we are transferring $600,000 from the fund's grants funding to contribution funding, so that it is better able to meet the current needs of our partners.

Another one of these initiatives to keep our citizens safe was in response to the Bedford decision. Members here will recall when the Supreme Court struck the three major sections on prosecution last December. The government took steps to protect our communities, vulnerable people, and those involved in this inherently dangerous activity by focusing police resources on the consumers and the perpetrators.

I'm pleased to say that Bill C-36, the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act, will come into force next week. I want to take this opportunity to thank this committee for their attention and the fact that you reconvened the committee over the summer months to focus on this important issue. Through this bill we're ensuring that the laws protect those who sell their sexual services and prosecute those who exploit them. This bill will protect communities as well from the harms of prostitution, and reduce, we hope, the demand for sexual services.

In addition, the justice and public safety departments will be providing support for exit strategy programming for those involved in prostitution. That amount, as you know, is $20 million. There will be more to put forward in the coming days about how to enhance such things as education, job training, helping with child care, counselling, and mental health and addictions. All of these figure prominently in this complex problem.

Mr. Chairman, our government has also continued to move forward on new initiatives that ensure that victims of crime are treated with the courtesy, compassion, and respect they deserve. For example, over the past seven years, we have designated more than $140 million to give victims a more effective voice through initiatives delivered by the Department of Justice. This amounts to money allocated to the Department of Justice's victims fund, a grants and contributions program that provides funding to provinces, territories, and non-governmental organizations whose projects, activities, and operations support the objectives of this fund.

We also work closely with other departments; Public Safety, as I mentioned, but certainly Labour and the minister responsible for the Status of Women.

Mr. Chair, other initiatives include, as you are aware, the victims ombudsman's office, which is key to enhancing victims...and include a strategy of $10 million to support the child advocacy centres set up across the country.

I can table more information with respect to these advocacy centres, but suffice it to say that this is, I think, one of the most compassionate initiatives we have undertaken in decades, which goes directly to the effort to lessen the harms that inevitably flow from child sexual abuse. This work, which is being done in some 22 centres now across Canada, is having a profound impact of improvement upon our justice system, vis-à-vis this devastating problem of child abuse. In my time as Minister of Justice, the child and youth advocacy centres are the most impressive initiative I have seen.

Mr. Chair, other important priorities for the government for protecting Canadians include combatting impaired driving, still the number one cause of criminal death in Canada. To that end, I remain committed to bringing forward legislative initiatives to modernize and strengthen impaired and drug-impaired offences as they pertain to provisions of the Criminal Code.

In conclusion, all of this is to say, Mr. Chair and colleagues, that the money that has been allotted to our department has been well used and is accounted for.

To conclude, I would like to thank you and your committee members for the important work you do, and for giving me the opportunity to make these opening remarks.

The funding that the Department of Justice portfolio has received has brought results for Canadians, and I will do my utmost to ensure that these funds will continue to be spent wisely.

I now look forward to taking your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Minister. You can introduce your guests, if you need to, during question period.

Madame Boivin, the time is yours.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, thank you for agreeing to change the date of your appearance before our committee so that we can study the votes allocated to your department under supplementary estimates (B) 2014-15.

Before getting to the heart of the matter, I would be remiss if I didn't share my thoughts with you about today's top news. As a result, more people are probably following our committee today than on many other occasions when we deal with various topics. I am talking about the appointment made to the Supreme Court of Canada to fill the position of Justice Lebel, who is retiring. Let me also take this opportunity to commend him for all his years of service. As a lawyer from Quebec, I am proud of the work accomplished by Justice Louis Lebel over the course of his career.

He will be replaced by Suzanne Côté. This is the first time I have seen a lawyer directly appointed to the Supreme Court. It is not common, but it is interesting. I am very pleased that you have finally agreed to appoint a woman to the Supreme Court of Canada. Congratulations. As you know, I have often talked to you about that. In my view, it is important for the Supreme Court to show equality between men and women, as much as it can with an uneven number of members. This is the kind of equality we must have in Canada. Congratulations on doing that.

Today, we are hearing good things about the Hon. Suzanne Côté, as we will have to call her soon. Whether you like it or not, you know as well as I do that, when we talk about the Supreme Court of Canada, the process is always the elephant in the room.

I would like to digress for a moment. Your government has just made the final appointment to the Supreme Court of Canada. Unless someone resigns, I don't think there will be any positions to fill at the Supreme Court for some time. Mr. Minister, perhaps we should use that time to think about the process. People on the ground have many ideas. Various experts have talked about it and made various suggestions. Over the years, since the early 2000s, we have been trying to use different methods. I think Canadians are entitled to a process that is as transparent as possible.

In addition to the fact that Suzanne Côté's appointment is excellent, I would like to be able to tell everyone who asks me whether it was a political or transparent process. However, I will not be able to do so because everything was done behind closed doors. That is always a bit irritating. I think it is possible to make the same decisions using a more open process.

Mr. Minister, I hope that you will be willing to allow this committee, or any other committee, to study the issue and see whether we could do better. When I say “do better”, I am not talking about a better appointment, but about improving the process. That is what I am hoping for in this situation. I find it regrettable that there is no ad hoc committee because it is always useful to introduce new judges to Canadians. With that, I conclude this part of my remarks.

I would like us to do this for all the other appointments. We are talking about the budget here. Mr. Minister, some items are already in your budgets, such as some judicial positions that are still not filled. I am upset, because we are talking about access to justice, but there are still 23 vacancies at the Ontario Superior Court. All the judges I meet during my consultations tell me that this has a huge impact on access to justice and on the way justice is done. Judges are sometimes swamped. We should take care of that and fill those positions as soon as possible.

We also need to make sure that the process of appointing the judges is not political. It needs to be as transparent as possible because, as you explained in the House this week, we always strive to reward merit, to reward people's skills and qualifications. This should also apply to the courts.

I will let you respond to those few comments.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Ms. Boivin.

As always, I appreciate your approach and agree with you on many of your comments.

This decision is the result of a number of consultations with many people from Quebec—the province where you live—who work in the justice system. Specifically, there were people from the Barreau du Québec and the Canadian Bar Association. So a lot of people were consulted and expressed all the opinions needed to make a good decision.

I also appreciate your view on the process. What you said about transparency and the trust of Canadians is really important.

Unfortunately, the process in which you participated was tainted because of a leak.

The integrity of the appointment process, not to mention the confidence that Canadians have in the individuals, is extremely important. I think we can both agree. My concern is that there are individuals who may not apply or would be dissuaded from putting their names forward if they felt—

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

It would go public. That, I understand, Mr. Minister.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

This is exactly what happened. I'll come directly to your question. This is what, unfortunately, undermined a process that our government undertook. You would have to admit that it was in fact the most inclusive and the most consultative process that we have seen in Canada thus far.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

It worked very well with Justice Wagner.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

It did indeed.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

I don't necessarily want to argue with you, Minister, but sometimes maybe it's who is on the list that might create the problem.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Or who is on the committee.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

If you don't have a problem with the list, then it might not create the so-called “leak”.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Madame Boivin, you're well over your time.

Do you want to finish your answer?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I just want to say that the integrity of the selection process first and foremost has to include this broad consultation. We chose to consult directly, in this instance. I would not suggest for a minute that this process cannot be re-examined, but in this particular instance we have chosen to move in this direction, as I said outside, to expedite the process, to ensure that the court had a full complement and that Quebec was fully represented, and, as I think you've underscored today and previously the need for this, to have gender balance reflected within our judiciary, but more broadly within Canadian society.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you for those questions.

Our next questioner is Mr. Dechert from the Conservative Party. You'll get the same time as the NDP.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome, Minister.

I want to start by joining Madame Boivin in thanking Justice LeBel for his great years of service to our country and to our justice system. I also want to let you know that as a member of the practising bar a few years ago, I was familiar with Madame Côté, as I think all members of the bar in Canada were. The members of the bar have the highest regard for her. She was considered one of the finest trial lawyers in Canada. I think it's just a tremendous appointment. I congratulate you on that appointment.

I want to refer to some of the things you highlighted in your opening remarks today. You mentioned the Canadian victims bill of rights, and you'll know that the committee has been studying Bill C-32, the victims bill of rights. We just concluded our review and started our clause-by-clause review on Tuesday. I can tell you that in my riding, in Mississauga, for many years people have questioned their faith in the justice system. They were concerned that victims were treated as just another witness in the process and that they were often not informed about the investigative process, about the prosecution, about court dates, about plea bargains, and all the various procedures in a process that affected them greatly, because they were the people who were injured in the event that led to the process.

I wonder if you could tell us what you've been hearing from victims with regard to Canada's criminal justice system. How do you feel the victims bill of rights will change the status quo within the justice system?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much. I've been hearing that there is marked improvement, there is greater optimism than certainly there was some years ago. Frankly, during the consultations—and we did numerous consultations in every province and territory—one of the themes I did hear emerge was that victims felt they were often not included, that the system was too complex. It was cumbersome. It felt very foreign. There was confusion as to where the responsibilities to them were actually found. Having said that, the inclusion now of victim services does vary across the country, particularly in remote parts of Canada where Mr. Leef comes from, for example, and there are bigger challenges to reach remote communities. But these victim services coupled with child advocacy centres, coupled with what I think is really an evolution within the system to be more respectful of victims, have brought us a long way.

The victims bill of rights is intended to cement or to put in place for the very first time in federal law prescribed rights of victims that will be enforceable. This works very well with our victims ombudsman and provincial victims ombudsmen who are there to ensure that victims are treated fairly, that they do receive the information necessary to make important decisions for themselves or their families in a timely fashion. Everybody knows their obligations and responsibilities, from police, from crown defence counsel, the court itself, the victim services. There are more clearly defined roles. I think this will be a quantum leap and an improvement across the board. I truly believe this will be transformational for our system. I worked in the justice system at a time when there were no victim impact statements, where victim services were scant, if they existed at all in certain places, in parts of the country, where things such as testimonial aids and some of the more very precise improvements that we're seeing in our criminal justice system were again not applied uniformly or were certainly not as readily available.

I feel very strongly about that. We've invested significant dollars, $140 million, over the past seven-plus years. We have put in place these supports and this wraparound service that is very much intended to delineate the responsibilities, and just simply raise awareness, where victims know they can go to a certain location, to a certain individual, to see that their rights are respected and their role is included.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

You also mentioned in your opening comments child and youth advocacy centres. You'll know the Boost centre in Toronto that is doing amazing work on behalf of child and youth sexual assault victims in the city of Toronto. On October 29, you visited the Catholic Family Services of Peel and Dufferin and announced an amount of $249,000 to help in the creation of a CYAC in Peel region, which is part of the area that I represent and Mr. Seeback represents. I can tell you we're both big supporters of the CYAC concept and we would really like to see it come to our region. I wonder if you could give us a little more explanation about why you think CYACs are worth supporting, and tell us what you see as the real value of the work that they do.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

You have good reason to be proud of the child advocacy centre in your region. This is groundbreaking in terms of the approach because it is tailor made to be child-friendly and parent-friendly. It recognizes the extremely deleterious, debilitating impact that child sexual abuse can have. There is much more clear understanding of the necessity for early intervention and breaking down some of these intimidating barriers for children in particular. The fact that we are seeing such a positive response is quite instructive for the broader criminal justice system.

We have brilliant people in mental health services, victim services, now working directly with all of the major players—participants in the system, from police at the earliest stages of investigation, to the parents, to the education system—and it is all done in a very coordinated fashion to break down some of the barriers that were there previously.

I mentioned we have 22 now in operation or in development. I'd be pleased to leave this with the committee, which sets out in some detail where these are currently operating and where they will be operating, with more in the works.

People like Sheldon Kennedy, Dr. Amy Ornstein, and many others who have invested personally of their time, effort, and leadership in making the success in our system, really deserve all the credit. They can speak to this with far more passion and understanding than I can, although I do feel very motivated and inspired when I visit these child advocacy centres and see the improvements that are being made: multidisciplinary teams, child psychologists, those who are deeply familiar with how to treat and how to help children overcome all of this, including the stigma that is still there.

I think I mentioned the last time I was here, something as simple as allowing a child to take a personal item, their pet, to an interview or to a court process so lessens the trauma of that experience and helps to do away with what is commonly known as “re-victimization.” I can't say enough about these child advocacy centres. It's my hope that we can continue to make them available to more communities and more children in the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Minister.

Our next questioner is Mr. Casey from the Liberal Party.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, allow me to make it unanimous in terms of the parties represented here in thanking Justice LeBel for his years of service and in welcoming Suzanne Côté to the Supreme Court. I also share the view of Madame Boivin when she indicated that the fact that you have chosen to nominate a woman is a positive step towards correcting the gender imbalance in the court. I would also offer my support in that regard, Minister.

She said something else that I would also align myself with. I appreciate your candour with respect to being open to changes in the process going forward that potentially allow for parliamentary involvement. As you know well, all parties agreed under the previous administration that a closed, secretive process wasn't appropriate, and there was a process that you acknowledged worked quite well in the appointment of Justice Wagner.

I've gone one step further, Minister, and put the committee on notice of a motion, which I propose to present now, and that is:

That the Committee agree with the recommendations of the Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of Justice and Attorney General, submitted on May 5, 2004, when he joined with the Honourable Kevin Sorenson, Minister of State for Finance; the Honourable Vic Toews, former Minister of Justice and Attorney General; Mr. Garry Breitkreuz, Member for Yorkton-Melville; and Mr. Chuck Cadman, former Member for Surrey North, to recommend that “[t]here must be substantive input from all the provinces and territories into the compilation of a list of suitable Supreme Court of Canada nominees”, “[t]here must be a public review of a short list of the nominees before a parliamentary committee”, and “[t]here must be Parliamentary ratification of the chosen nominee.”

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Are you moving that?

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

I am.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Here's my suggestion.

If you move it now that means we move to that item. The minister is here and has no obligation to participate in the discussion, which he's not going to do, and at 4:30 he leaves. We're losing our opportunity to talk about the estimates, which is what we brought him here for.

The option in my view would be for you to give us notice that in the second hour, in your turn—because we will start over again, you will get another turn—you move it then and that the committee deals with it then. If you want to ask questions of the minister of your motion that you intend to move in the second hour, then it will be part of your time. Otherwise we move on to debate on that particular motion.

I'm leaving it to you to decide what you prefer to do. He will not be responding because he's not a witness to this. That's committee business that you're moving. He's not on the committee.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. If I understand what you just said to me, the only way that I can ask the minister about the motion is if I agree to put it off to the second hour.