Justice Committee on May 11th, 2015

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Well, I disagree with the premise that it is in defence of charter violations, for starters.

We've actually lowered, in some cases, the number of ongoing litigation cases that are making their way through the court. We're looking at ways, obviously, in many instances, to settle cases rather than have them drag on. The reality is that the vast majority of cases in which the Government of Canada—and our department directly—finds itself are not initiated by the Government of Canada.

That said, we still have a very laudable success rate in terms of defending positions that we take on principle and that we take because we believe it's in Canadians' interests and in taxpayers' interests.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

A case that may not have been initiated by the Government of Canada but one that's being prolonged by virtue of the Government of Canada's appeal is the Ishaq case involving the niqab at the citizenship ceremony. Can you give us some sense, Mr. Minister, of how much that case has cost the taxpayer to date and whether you have an envelope set aside for the future proceedings in that case?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Well, obviously not.

This is a case that's before the courts and so for that reason, as Attorney General and Minister of Justice, I'm not going to comment on cases that are still before the court.

These are cases like others that make their way through the courts. They are a direct response to an issue that is, in our view, of importance to Canadians. It deals with fundamental values and rights that do sometimes come into conflict and like previous governments we've taken the position that we will advance and will do so through the courts in a transparent way.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Mr. Minister, in the planning and priorities report from the department, on page 38, there's an indicator that the department's going to be able to save $1.7 million by the sunsetting of the missing and murdered aboriginal women initiative.

I know you referenced this topic in your opening remarks, but is that a good place for the government to be saving money?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

We're actually increasing money in this regard.

It's a situation where there was previously determined sunsetting, but in terms of the actual money that will be devoted to this important issue, there will be an increase through our department, the Department of Justice, and that's in addition to the funding that is coming from the Status of Women and Public Safety.

Year over year, dollar over dollar, our government has significantly, I mean substantially, increased both resources, programming, and personnel availability for more support on and off reserves. That's without getting into the area of the DNA data banking, the unidentified remains, and other subject matters that impact directly on what we all want to see, and that is justice for murdered and missing aboriginal women and their families.

Much of that is, of course, the arrest, prosecution, and holding to account of those responsible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Mr. Wilks.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Chair, and thanks to the witnesses for being here today.

Minister, in your opening remarks you spoke about the aboriginal justice strategy and about your passion toward related issues among aboriginal communities. You mentioned 275 aboriginal programs through 800 aboriginal communities.

Could you discuss the importance of these types of initiatives within the aboriginal communities and speak some more about the aboriginal justice strategy.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

The strategy, in my view, is having the desired effect. It is ongoing. There is a very challenging and troubling scenario that we're all aware of, given the disproportionate number of aboriginal people, young aboriginal people in particular, who find their way into the system and are incarcerated. The numbers are staggering.

There are programs and outreach and the ability to provide alternative programming. This programming is arrived at, in many cases, through consultation with first nations, because the sheer size of the country and the diversity among different bands in different parts of the country necessitates that we not take the one-size-fits-all approach. Some communities are obviously focused more on addressing issues of addiction, for example, or issues that relate to gang violence or issues of domestic violence.

The programs, as I mentioned, are very diverse and are tailored in many cases to those communities. We think they are tailored in a way that involves first nations input, first and foremost, but that also allows us to respond in a pre-emptive and preventative way as opposed to simply reacting. These programs are borne out through great efforts on behalf of people working not only in our department but also at Indian and Northern Affairs, those who are working to help with employment issues, for example.

I take an example from a community in my own constituency, the Pictou first nations. A lot of the effort now is aimed at engaging young people coming out of high school to get them into the workforce and to do so in a way that respects their heritage and culture but allows them to be gainfully employed and to pursue areas of employment that are of interest to them, including their own businesses.

It's an approach that I think is having a very important effect on reducing that overrepresentation, lowering recidivism rates, and embracing community responses to criminality. The aboriginal justice strategy was renewed for that very reason. It was renewed in a way that is designed to get to young people before they find themselves involved in the criminal justice system. You, as a police officer, know about that early engagement and about building trust. Aboriginal policing is an important part of that strategy, and having members of the RCMP and local police forces there also creates employment opportunities, thereby adding legitimacy.

In my view, it also creates a greater sense of trust when the response to justice issues is handled primarily by first nations people themselves, so their delivery of these programs that we're funding is also, I think, one of the keys to success. I think the programs themselves have also proven to be cost effective and they produce the types of results that have a lasting impact on communities and on everyone, frankly.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you very much for that.

You're also involved with many initiatives to keep our streets safe and to keep the crimes rates down. Often this means supporting various preventative initiatives. Recently, you launched a call for nominations for the 2015 Minister of Justice National Youth Justice Policing Award. As I understand it, this program recognizes innovative approaches taken by police officers and using measures provided under the Youth Criminal Justice Act to deal with youth in conflict with the law.

Could you elaborate on this program and talk about how it fits into our government's approach to tackling crime and keeping our communities safe?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Again, I think these are programs that you, having been so closely associated with policing for much of your life, would celebrate. These awards are aimed at recognizing police officers and youth who engage in some of these programs. They are provided very much in collaboration with organizations across the country, such as the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and the Canadian Police Association itself. They work closely with us, and it's about promoting some of those underpinnings and the values of the justice system—fairness, inclusiveness, citizen engagement, everything that we would want to promote and embrace. It's a holistic approach, not just to justice but to policing as well, which is very much the sharp end. It's that enforcement that is sometimes most challenging.

The award is now presented every year, usually in the fall, August or September. It's done, as I mentioned, in close association with police themselves, and it helps recognize those who are doing the heavy lifting in our justice system, such as police groups, our front-line officers, community groups, and other justice participants. It's open to the public to nominate and to engage and to recognize people who are deserving and who make a real difference in their communities.

Thank you for the opportunity to promote this. I hope we will see some great nominations this year.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner, from the New Democratic Party, is Madame Péclet.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister.

My first question is about Bill C-23, which was passed and which transfers the Elections Canada Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections, responsible for investigations and the management of federal elections, to the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. However, I believe that the 2015-2016 main estimates do not contain any funds or increases specifically for the management of the Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections.

I would like to know if a budget is planned for the administration of the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and if so, what that amount is. I do not know what type of budget he had before, but I would like to know if that has been drastically reduced.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I'll be very honest with you. I do not have the specific budget allotment. I understand that the Director of Public Prosecutions, the deputy, will be appearing before you later this week and could provide you with that specific amount. I'm not going to pretend that I have that figure with me.

You're correct, though, that the responsibilities are coming over to us from a new department. I suppose that the costs associated with that move would essentially be absorbed by our department. The staffing and any specific responsibilities will be assumed by the Department of Justice internally. To date, it isn't a new allotment or a new cost. For that same reason, there wouldn't be a great deal of casework that would have emerged thus far.

The officials specifically responsible for that new office will be here and can answer that question, and I will undertake to get a more specific answer myself and provide it to the committee.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you very much, Minister.

My second question is about the administration of the Victims Fund. We discussed this fund at length when we studied the bill on the Victims Bill of Rights. One of the elements of that charter was that a part of the services was to offset the victims' surcharge.

However, since the 2015-2016 main estimates contain no significant increase in the amounts available to the Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, I would like to know whether the contributions from the Victims Fund will increase proportionally.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

There are in fact additional funds in the 2015-16 budget year. Additional resources in the amount of $1.79 million will be received to address what we think are significant harms that flow specifically from prostitution.

In the overall picture, when it comes to increased funding, there is a victims fund that will see dollars set aside and accessible for groups, and even individuals, who are working in support of victims across the country. There's an application process that is to be followed.

The overall budget, as far as the victims strategy, has been ongoing since 2006. In fact, there was some $158 million provided over the past almost 10 years that was accessible through the victims fund as part of the broader strategy of grants and contributions that are made to provinces, territories, and non-governmental organizations. They deliver programs that are designed specifically to meet the needs of victims groups.

In short, there is more money available. There is money that is now specifically earmarked.... I spoke earlier of the funds that are available for prostitution-related exit strategies. I know for certain that there have been numerous applications from Quebec. I've met with some of those groups in Montreal and Quebec City. Those funds will start to flow as a consequence of decisions made on criteria, and they'll start to flow in this budget year.

I believe I enunciated earlier that there is also money in that particular pool from Public Safety, in addition to that from the budget of the Department of Justice.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I see here that there is a $1.6 million cut due to the expiry of funding to support victims' services and the prevention of violence in aboriginal communities, and to increase national support for missing persons investigations.

Could we have some details on the expiry of that funding? Will the Department of Justice be renewing it?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

In fact, this is an example of a program coming to a conclusion, and there will be additional funds. The overall pool of funds will be larger than it was in previous fiscal years.

It's an issue that has to do with a sunsetting program that was earmarked for five years and that was specifically aimed at addressing many diverse issues around the murdered and missing. There was a strategy involved in this by taking immediate steps to improve the response of law enforcement. Some of these planned actions, such as delivering a new National Centre for Missing Persons and Unidentified Remains and the public website, have been completed and funding has been put in place.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

What amount will be allocated?

What will be the amount for that particular program you're talking about?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

In the new action plan that was announced by the Department of Justice, our department will be putting $2 million through the supplementary estimates. That's the increase I'm referring to, and that is in addition to the overall program funding. There is also the commitment that has been made of a larger pool of funding that comes from outside the Department of Justice, and that's administered by the Department of Labour, Minister Kellie Leitch's department.

So it's $2 million from Justice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our last questioner is our visitor today to the committee.

Mr. Menegakis, the floor is yours.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for your testimony before the committee.

Minister, as we all know, our government has placed considerable focus on bringing forth legislation that will continue to keep Canadians safe on their streets and in the communities in which they live.

You and your department are tasked with delivering a wide range of justice programs while at the same time ensuring that we spend within our means. A lot has been said with this latest budget about the importance of balancing the books. Can I ask you to elaborate on the balance that must be struck, Minister, between delivering an effective and robust justice agenda and being fiscally prudent with taxpayers' money?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I think that is an important consideration, and I thank you, Mr. Menegakis, for stating the obvious.

Quite frankly I think it's expected that all departments deliver the services, the programs, the results that are expected, and Justice is no exception. They do so with a mind to ensuring responsibility, accountability, of that program spending. Part of that is transparency, as we're exhibiting here. Part of it is also doing examinations from time to time of what actual efficiencies can be delivered when it comes to those programs.

It's no small consideration to keep in mind the taxpayers' money that is being used to deliver these programs and the results we are talking about here. I think there is an expectation on the part of Canadians that we balance the budget, that we get back to a place that is important for Canadians. There is an expectation that we'll be able to achieve savings through innovation where possible, and it was a very strong commitment that we made.

Coming out of a recession, it's clear that we are one of the few countries, frankly, on the planet that have been able to do this and lower taxes and keep the budget balanced, in spite of some of the unexpected things that have happened in a very turbulent time around falling oil prices.

Not to get too far afield but to answer your question, we're very mindful of that fact at the Department of Justice. As all ministers will tell you, we've been asked to be very prudent in our requests this year—as in previous years—when we go to the Department of Finance and say that these are the programs we're delivering.

We've set certain priorities where we've increased spending. Child advocacy centres are one of them. Ensuring that we have safety and security around justice facilities is another important area where we sought increases. To come back to a question from Madame Boivin with respect to legal aid, this is an ongoing concern. Where in other areas of justice we have had to reduce, we have managed to keep this funding stable. We've kept the funding stable, which does result in a net increase when calculated over time.

Of course, when we transfer significant dollars to provinces for the delivery of many of the justice programs and services, I would describe that as a direct contribution that the federal government is making to the delivery and accessibility of justice nationwide.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Minister, last summer you articulated the government's response to the Bedford decision, both to this committee and Parliament, and throughout Canada. The result of those efforts, and the passage of Bill C-36, was a built-in-Canada model, which was widely applauded by law enforcement agencies across the country, and I might add by the York Regional Police service in the region that I live in. With this bill, our government demonstrated our support and compassion for the women who are trying to get out of prostitution to stop this circle of violence in their lives.

Minister, the passage of Bill C-36 was coupled with a funding commitment to help those who are trying to leave the practice. In these estimates, there is an increase of $1.9 million in support of non-legislative measures to address prostitution. Could you talk a bit about this funding commitment, please?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Menegakis.

I would also be quick to point out that, through the good work of many of the police agencies, the investigators, those on the front line, we've actually seen, as a result of some of this legislation, that they have now been able to make some arrests of perpetrators, of those who prey on vulnerable people. Quite frankly, they were the target of these changes. Perpetrators, pimps, johns, those who are purchasing, that's where much of this focus is and should be.

We also announced, you're right, a complementary fund of $20 million over the next five years to help with the compassionate work of helping those who are vulnerable to leave, to exit, prostitution, which is an inherently dangerous way to make a living, if I can put it that way. We've directed these funds to deliver some of the front-line services that are happening now. Make no mistake about it, there is a lot of incredibly important work being done. This will buttress those efforts. It may allow for some new programs to emerge that will be available to those who wish to exit. With that overall approach of targeting programs to help those who are in danger and those who are most in need to leave, to find employment, to go through retraining, sometimes it's as simple as having a place to live, accessing child care, and being able to find a safe place to regroup and emerge with a better way of life.

That additional funding is part and parcel of the bill itself. To return to some of the other questions, it comes as a result of a number of overlapping areas on which we're trying to focus on the preventative side, whether it's addictions issues or whether it's people who were victimized themselves at a very young age, who are impoverished, who lack the opportunity and the ability, in some cases, to walk away from that life. Human trafficking is of course very much associated with this issue. We've had targeted efforts in that regard as well with certain legislation. People like Joy Smith have been leaders in the country. The online aspect of exploitation very much impacts in prostitution, as does the advertising. It does require that very holistic, far-reaching approach. The programming for the exit strategy is a piece of that.

As I mentioned, we're starting to roll out now those specific funds, because they've been, and I say this with some regret, oversubscribed. I wish I could report to you that there wasn't the need. There is massive need in this regard. We'll have to look in the future at that targeted amount and also be able to report to your earlier question with regard to how efficacious we've been in delivering and getting results.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Minister, for your answers.

Thank you, committee. That is the time we have with the minister on the main estimates. Just so you know, we will be dealing with this item again on Wednesday for the first hour, when our friends the officials are here.

I'll give a little heads-up to the officials that I will be doing a little bit of a comparative of the plans and priorities from last year to this year. I'm looking forward to our discussion.

With that, we'll suspend for two minutes.