Justice Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2013

[Don Cha]

Yes, sir. It's our suppliers and our members. We get the rebate plus. Because we do group buying, we have an extra rebate coming through to our office. That's how we operate it.

Did I answer your question, sir?

[A voice]

He's listening to the translation.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Okay.

And what about you, Mr. Grant?

[Gary Grant]

The coalition is funded by its members of which there are 16. It's on the public record and on file with the Ontario lobbyists registry. Our list of members is available on our website.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Who actually pays you? Are there 300 members?

[Gary Grant]

There are 16 members.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

There are 16 members.

Very well. As you suggest, I will check who these members are.

Ms. Doucas, do you believe that Bill C-10 will reduce tobacco use?

[Flory Doucas]

That is an excellent question. Bill C-10 can definitely reduce contraband by providing other tools to police forces, especially when they are fighting organized crime. It will also be useful for them when it comes to dealing with reoffenders and when they have to deal with armed persons, violence, and so forth. In that sense, yes.

However, as concerns reducing the rates of tobacco use, it is indisputable. There are documents about this. Products that initiate people to tobacco use in Canada are flavoured tobacco products and cigarillos. There is a good reason why the study of butts in Ontario and Quebec did not include cigarillos. It is because they wanted to put aside data on legal products and focus on illegal products.

I don't think that we are going to get anywhere unless the government tackles flavoured tobacco products, whether it be shisha, menthol cigarettes or strawberry-flavoured and chocolate-flavoured cigarillos. These products are technically not covered by the definition of cigarillo. The manufacturers have managed to circumvent the regulations.

Now, we have to look at the products, as is done elsewhere in the world where neutral packaging has been adopted, among other things. This is what we will have to do if we really want to reduce the rates of tobacco use in Canada.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Doucas.

My next question goes to Mr. Cha and Mr. Grant.

From what I understood from your briefs, you do not deal with contraband of electronic cigarettes. And yet, these products are banned in Canada but sold on the Internet in the United States. Recently, on the radio or on TV, I heard renowned physicians say that electronic cigarettes were less harmful for people's health and that they even reduced the rates of the scourge of tobacco addiction.

Why have you not tackled the scourge of contraband electronic cigarettes?

[Gary Grant]

I do not have enough knowledge to make a comment on electronic cigarettes—a few newspaper articles, a few website articles. I don't have a position on it. It's certainly something that should be studied. I think there will have to be a position on it eventually if it becomes more widespread.

[Don Cha]

The market is getting bigger and your question is that if they smoke e-cigarettes will it reduce the health problems? Is that one of the questions?

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I wanted to know why you have not made the issue of contraband electronic cigarettes sold over the Internet one of your priorities.

[Don Cha]

I do not think the government has a clear position on the e-cigarette yet. So I have no comment on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Jacob, that's your time.

Our next questioner is from the Conservative Party, Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning to our witnesses.

The first thing I would like to do is pursue a line of questioning with Mr. Grant in regard to the links. As a former police officer, a very experienced police officer, you must know very well the links between organized crime and contraband tobacco.

[Gary Grant]

Yes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Please highlight that for this committee and tell us what the effect of adding this legislation to the arsenal of the Criminal Code would do for the ability of police officers and the crown to get convictions.

I'll follow up with a supplemental if I think I know where you're going with this.

[Gary Grant]

Thank you, sir.

The fact that organized crime has become so intrinsically involved with this really raises red flags in the policing community and should raise red flags everywhere. By and large, I think it's because they saw that it's a huge profit-maker and, at the time, that it was relatively low risk, in the sense that huge shipments could be seized and there would be huge penalties to be paid, for sure, but ones that were just a fraction of what they were making.

There was really not much incentive for them to stop doing it because the cash flow was so great. Then we know for a fact from talking to the RCMP and from my own experience with policing that they reinvest that money into other criminal activities, such as gun-running and drugs, and there have been even some examples of human smuggling.

The fact is that the government is taking a look ahead and looking at things in a harsher manner, with more procedures by indictment, maybe dual offences, but at least indictable offences, with real, meaningful penalties, maybe including seizure of property and what not. In particular, looking at it as an organized crime activity would give them pause and may be able to slow them down. Moreover, law enforcement would have a lot more in their arsenal to fight the problem as opposed to just imposing a revenue fine.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

I wanted to just get your comments on the task force. We've noticed in the research that's provided to us by the Library of Parliament that the amount of contraband appears to be on the decline and the amount of legally grown tobacco actually seems to be increasing, particularly in Ontario as export markets open up.

I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about that task force.

Then I have a question for both of you, Mr. Cha and Mr. Grant. You both talked about punitive penalties and their punitive nature being a deterrent. I've heard that word “deterrent”. I'm wondering if you think that the changes being proposed here are deterrent enough, or will they simply be seen as a cost of doing business by organized crime?

[Gary Grant]

I can answer that first.

First of all, there would certainly be a specific deterrent to the actual people who have been arrested, charged, and hopefully convicted and receiving sanctions. Since there are 175 gangs involved, I would suspect that a lot of those gangs are quite small. People who think this is so lucrative will just put a little organization together, a little network, and get in on the cash cow. If they see significant penalties being levied, that will not just be a specific deterrent but a general deterrent for everybody to look at and say, “Well, the cops and the government are getting serious about this now. It won't be a fine. It won't be a slap on the wrist. We could do some serious time here or have a really significant record.” And maybe they'll think twice about getting involved. I do believe there would be a deterrent effect.

I forgot the first part of your question.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

I was going to ask you about the task force and the effect of that task force on the RCMP. I think this legislation also broadens the amount of police investigators in the country who have jurisdiction to pursue contraband, because it now becomes a Criminal Code offence. It broadens the number of police officers who can get involved in laying these charges.

[Gary Grant]

Exactly. I think the task force would be a most welcome thing, not only because they're boots on the street, but because they can also provide mentoring, if you will, to the other organizations of provincial police forces and municipal police forces. They will now be able to get involved in these investigations, whereas previously it was just the federal police or provincial revenue officers who could. The province have seen fit to give powers to provincial police officers and municipal police officers to stop, detain, and investigate now. The RCMP task force would certainly be a great resource for that.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

My last question is for Ms. Doucas and Mr. Grant. You both mentioned in your presentations that this legislation is a good step, which indicates to me that you have other ideas that the government would need to follow subsequent to this bill being passed, should it get the support of enough members of Parliament.

Mr. Grant and Ms. Doucas, what respectively would you say would be the subsequent steps needed?

[Gary Grant]

Very quickly, I would like to see continued attention paid to the problem, particularly in regard to intergovernmental and interdepartmental consultations, including first nations people, to try to come to a conclusion and arrest this organized crime problem. Let's face it, there are a lot people living on those first nations who are being intimidated on their own lands.

[Flory Doucas]

I'll just add that I think that Quebec has done outstanding work on this front. Contraband went from 35% of the market to 15%—and that being been done through various controls on raw materials and machinery. You need licensing before you even sow your tobacco. There's a manifest that each farmer needs to fill out saying who it will be sold to and who's going to be shipping it.