Justice Committee on Feb. 7th, 2019

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Fair enough.

Mr. Eccles, staying on the theme of provincial jurisdiction, is it true that there is provincial jurisdiction to seize animals who have been found in animal fighting?

[Shawn Eccles]

Our act allows us to seize an animal that we have reason to believe is in distress, and our definition of distress allows us to deal with animals that may have been involved in fighting. Certainly the impact is much less on penalties and on the ability to share that information. If somebody is convicted of a provincial statute and receives a prohibition from owning animals, that prohibition is only good while they're in the province of British Columbia, not if they move to Alberta.

We're seeing that currently with a number of individuals who have been charged with offences. They have this penchant for travelling back and forth between B.C. and Alberta, and, as far as I'm aware, now Saskatchewan. Unfortunately, although some of the history travels with them, the fact that they've been charged with an offence doesn't have an impact in another jurisdiction.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Reichert, I appreciate your presentation and the brief that you've submitted to the committee.

From what I gather, you're supportive of Bill C-84 but you don't think it goes far enough. Is that fair to say?

[Jordan Reichert]

I would say yes, I'm supportive of Bill C-84. I believe the animal fighting aspect really rounds out the legislation and, I think, fulfills its goal and its interest in serving to protect animals.

However, I believe the bestiality aspect fails to address the more systematic issues surrounding bestiality and to bring it into more contemporary times in terms of how these things are taking place and how they're being organized. I was reading about a forum called Beast Forum, or something like that. It has 1.2 million registered users. When you think about the number of people who could be trading and organizing through these kinds of channels and the rings that may be established, it's not sufficient to simply be focusing only on the act of bestiality. It's not just between that animal and that person. It has a much larger social aspect to it as well, which needs to be addressed.

That's why the Washington state law is one of the most progressive in terms of addressing this more well-rounded approach.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

However, making it easier to actually get convictions, which Bill C-84 does, will hopefully have an impact on the number of incidents that actually occur.

[Jordan Reichert]

Hopefully it will.

Just to go back and speak to what was mentioned before, the clandestine nature of the issue, though, makes it very difficult. I'm very aware that people are very apprehensive to report these issues as it is. They witness them, often for years, before they end up moving forward with calling their local animal welfare authority and saying something has been going on. A large part of that perhaps may be that they're concerned, obviously, about the impact that will have on the individual who they may have a relationship with to some degree, but I think also that there is just a lack of discussion about it in our society.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

I think that's a fair point. Hopefully the bill and the evidence you've given to the committee will help to get some more people interested in the topic and to understand how important it is.

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Donnelly.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both our witnesses for being here this morning and for providing their testimony and interest in this report we're doing.

Mr. Eccles, I'll start with you for my first question.

At the last committee meeting we heard a proposal that would allow judges to impose a ban on people convicted of bestiality from owning, having custody of or residing in the same location as animals in the future.

Would your organization support this proposal?

[Shawn Eccles]

My understanding is that we would be supportive of any increase in penalties but not at the cost of not proceeding and moving forward with the legislation.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Then, just to build on Mr. Fraser's questions, in your view, do the laws, programs and policies provide an effective framework—we're talking about federal right down to local—and the system to deal with these matters? If not, what do you think needs to be done to improve the situation?

[Shawn Eccles]

That's a very complex and difficult question.

Certainly I think the ability to dovetail between both provincial legislation and federal legislation is an important tool for us to be able to utilize. There are difficulties throughout all of Canada with respect to standardization of enforcement. That certainly seems to be an issue more than anything else.

The issue of the accountability and the transparency of an animal welfare agency was recently raised. I can say that officers of the B.C. SPCA are sworn peace officers under the Police Act, so we are accountable. We are accountable to the Solicitor General of British Columbia, and we do have a body that oversees the B.C. SPCA.

We're fortunate in the sense that in B.C., we're able to do some of these things, and perhaps in other jurisdictions throughout Canada there may be some difficulty with respect to accessing resources in order to appropriately investigate and prosecute offences. Those situations or issues, I think, are best dealt with by those agencies and their provincial governments that have the ability to enact legislation to assist those agencies in conducting cruelty investigations.

Certainly I think policing agencies throughout Canada should be given greater access to training and learning about the various offences. Certainly I think bestiality is one that most policing agencies will be dealing with, primarily because of the fact that it is within the Criminal Code. As the issue more than anything else becomes one of dogfighting, cockfighting or any animal fighting, it becomes a little more difficult primarily because, as indicated earlier, of the clandestine nature of the offence and the fact that these can be long-standing investigations.

Certainly the one I was involved with in 2008 involved a year-long investigation in which an undercover operative was employed. Those are not the resources that are available to the B.C. SPCA or any of the other animal welfare agencies that I'm aware of in British Columbia, but we were fortunate to have the co-operation of the Integrated Illegal Gaming Enforcement Team, which was made up of law enforcement agencies—the RCMP and city police forces—in British Columbia.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

What program or policy changes or any other action should be taken at the federal level to address all aspects of animal cruelty, in your opinion?

[Shawn Eccles]

That's difficult to answer.

I would certainly say the ability to enact or amend legislation is probably the most important part. Giving the enforcement agents—whether they be animal welfare officers, protection officers, control officers or policing agencies—the tools they need is important for us to be able to do the work we do.

With respect to policies, I couldn't really comment on those.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Is there anything with regard to Bill C-84 that you'd like to see? This is an opportunity, when the government is looking at making these changes, to do something.

[Shawn Eccles]

I understand that, and certainly the B.C. SPCA.... Personally, I am in full support of the amendments as presented. My agency is, as is Humane Canada.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Are there any forms of animal cruelty that are of concern to you or to your organization that aren't adequately covered by existing offences in the Criminal Code or by amendments in Bill C-84?

[Shawn Eccles]

No, there are not at this time.

Certainly all aspects of animal cruelty are of concern to me and to my agency, as well as to Humane Canada, but I think the current amendments, as written, will certainly provide an effective tool for us to utilize. Other pieces of legislation that we are currently enforcing are satisfactory at this point.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

How does Canada compare with other countries in addressing violence and cruelty towards animals, in your opinion?

[Shawn Eccles]

I think we are somewhat progressive. Certainly other international jurisdictions deal with it differently. The U.S. not only has federal legislation, but they have the ability, through their state legislatures, to enforce legislation.

Some is stronger and some is not quite as strong as the legislation that we have, and it's all up for interpretation. I think that, by proceeding with this legislation, it will, at the very least, give us the opportunity to commence investigations or to continue investigations and have a better defined path to go forward towards obtaining justice for the animals we're dealing with.

I know for a fact that there are farms in British Columbia right now—and forgive me when I say farms—where animals are raised specifically for the purpose of cockfighting. We don't turn a blind eye to it. We're aware of it, but we can't do anything with them. If this legislation is changed, absolutely, we now have the ability to go in there and deal effectively with the individuals who are raising these cocks for fighting, bring them forward, present them to the Crown, and hopefully go right through to court.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you so much.

We will now move to Mr. McKinnon.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I'd like to start with Mr. Eccles.

I'd like to carry on with what Mr. Donnelly was talking about. In relation to Mr. Donnelly's question about a ban, his question was more oriented towards bestiality.

Should there be a ban on owning and being in the presence of animals if you have a conviction for animal cruelty or for animal fighting?

[Shawn Eccles]

Absolutely. I think the ability for a judge or justice to impose those significant penalties would potentially act as a deterrent, and I would certainly support any increase in those penalties, but again, not at the expense of moving forward with the legislation.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

You also mentioned in your response to Mr. Donnelly that you believe you would have the ability to better prosecute farms or places where they're raising animals for fighting under this act. Could you elaborate on that, please? What parts of this act will help you do that? I'm also wondering if a ban would help in that respect. Can you answer that?

[Shawn Eccles]

Certainly. With regard to cockfighting in the jurisdiction that I work in, for some of the individuals, the rate of recidivism is high. We've charged a number of individuals and have been successful in convictions for only a small handful of these individuals. They are the same people who are involved in breeding, training and transporting these birds to cockfight arenas or cockpits where these animals are fought.

Currently, the legislation only allows us to enter a premise with a search warrant when we have reason to believe that animals are being fought and, in order to proceed, we're looking at somebody either aiding or abetting who would be present at a cockfight. We have to, one, have the actual event taking place, and two, we have to have evidence of a cockpit in order for us to proceed under the Criminal Code. Both are extremely difficult.

There is a farm that is very close to the headquarters for our cruelty investigations department where these birds are raised specifically for the purpose of fighting. Birds are tied out on barrels. They're kept within close proximity of each other. They're no more than a foot apart. These birds are always in a heightened state of excitement because they're bred specifically for fighting. The hens are permitted to wander amongst the cocks, which further heightens the excitement level of these animals. These animals are constantly at a level of heightened excitement, and they're literally in the numbers of hundreds, if not thousands.

I talked about the 1,270 birds that were euthanized in 2008, and the same characters that we were dealing with in 2008 are operating not far from where we are located and are raising the birds in exactly the same conditions they were raising them in in 2008. The difference was that in 2008 we actually found cockpits, which enabled us to take those birds and go to a justice.

As it stands now, we've executed warrants on the properties and have not found any evidence of pits, which would lead us to suspect that the fights are occurring off-site, but the birds are being raised on-site.

In changing the legislation for breeding, training or transporting these birds, it would certainly help the B.C. SPCA to deal with the situation.