Okay. I stand corrected on that point.
There are also allegations that Ms. Wilson-Raybould was fired as attorney general. There is no foundation to that. She went from a senior position to another senior position. She went to a senior position as veterans affairs minister in charge of a multi-billion dollar file and thousands and thousands of veterans who are critically important to Canadians. As well, as associate Minister of Defence, she's briefed on all the matters pertinent to defence and aware of our defence posture and our defence matters all around the world. It's a great opportunity. It's a coup, frankly, for her experience. I can't see how in any way this could be construed as being fired. But the notion that she was fired weaves back into this tapestry that the opposition likes to portray, that there is some sort of intrigue going on here, but I don't think there is any foundation for that whatsoever.
We're here today because of this article that was written by Bob Fife and others on the seventh, in which they alleged heavy pressure, urging, and so forth. They left the impression that any interaction between the cabinet, the PMO, and the attorney general was illegitimate, and yet on the following day, the same authors quoted also unnamed officials as saying the following:
...Canadians should not conflate or confuse a “vigorous debate” in the Prime Minister’s Office or among the PMO and members of cabinet over how to handle SNC-Lavalin’s charges with an effort to put pressure on Ms. Wilson-Raybould. A robust discussion is not pressure, one official said. Another official said the PMO had every right to raise the prosecution case with the justice minister, because a conviction could destroy the company and hurt thousands of workers at SNC-Lavalin.
I think one of the problems here is that the impression is out there in the public eye, because of these kinds of statements, that there has been something illicit going on. We have no foundation for that. We have allegations based on somebody's interpretation of discussions, and we don't know who they are or whether they're even privy to any discussions. I think it's very clear that we must make it clear that it is both legal and customary for there to be discussions between the minister of justice and attorney general and colleagues in the government on issues such as the prosecution of SNC-Lavalin in order for the minister of justice and the attorney general to obtain information and advice.
The real question here is not whether such discussions occurred but whether such discussions involved direction to the former minister of justice and attorney general to proceed in a particular way and whether that exceeded the Shawcross doctrine. That's why it's so important that we study the Shawcross doctrine, so we can know what those boundaries are and have some idea of what it would take to cross those boundaries. The question has been raised about whether or not we should even be talking about the remediation agreement concept.
The original article also speaks of these alleged interactions trying to influence the attorney general to abandon the prosecution. That's absolutely not what remediation agreements are about. Remediation agreements are basically a form of plea bargain, which are available to the accused in all manner of aspects of law—of criminal law, anyway. It's absolutely not an escape from consequences for their wrongful action, but they have to admit to the wrongfulness of the action, they have to pay a substantial penalty, and they have to make real and significant changes in their operations to ensure it doesn't happen again. This is not in any way escaping prosecution or escaping the consequences of bad actions.
On balance, I don't see anybody who actually is privy to these discussions, who is alleged to have been making these allegations, coming forward. How can we deal with random people as just a fishing expedition to try to figure out whether or not there is any foundation for this and then track it down?
That is why I think it is important that we delve into the nature and purpose of the Shawcross doctrine, and the nature and purpose, and the history perhaps, of the remediation agreements. I'm very interested in hearing from the current Minister of Justice and the other people mentioned in our motion with regard to these broad issues. If they are able to throw light on other matters, fine, that would great, and perhaps that would lead us into a further understanding of who else might need to be talked to as well.
I will be voting against the amendment and in favour of the original motion. Thank you.