Justice Committee on March 6th, 2019

[Erin Weir, Independent, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

It must happen on a fairly regular basis that companies come to the government seeking certain concessions and saying that there will be dire economic consequences and job losses if they don't get what they want. I'm wondering if you can speak any more to how the government assesses those kinds of claims or threats from companies.

[Michael Wernick]

Thank you for the question. First of all, it's an opportunity to say something I said earlier, which is that in Canada we have a very strong transparency regime. These contacts with government and this advocacy by companies is recorded; it's registered and it's regulated. That is a very good thing for Canada and Canadians. Companies, unions, university presidents, provinces and stakeholders make representations to governments all the time, and they make them to you, so each issue would be different in terms of how it's assessed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much, Mr. Weir.

So as not to confuse anyone with what's going to happen, I propose that I thank the witnesses and excuse the witnesses. We'll suspend for two minutes so that the witnesses can leave, and then we'll move to Mr. Rankin's motion.

[Michael Wernick]

Mr. Chair, can I just clarify one point about the availability of documents? I'm trying very hard to be helpful to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Sure, of course.

[Michael Wernick]

I was never asked the question directly, but I just volunteer it to try to be helpful to the committee.

As this issue started to bubble in September and October, I, like many people, wanted to understand the decision-making framework, who had what role, what authority and what power.

I verbally asked my colleague for a backgrounder on the issue. That backgrounder was sent to me on October 12, in the afternoon, and I am now free to provide that to the committee. That opinion— which gave no opinion on what to do; it's simply a backgrounder on roles, responsibilities and authorities—has been the foundation for my participation in this file ever since.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

We'll consider it tabled with the committee.

Ms. Raitt, before I thank them, did you want to ask something or say something?

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

I would like to know whether anybody would be interested in having a very short, one more round, with three minutes each.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

I'll look around.

It looks like we'll have to have a vote on that because I don't see consent.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

The meeting was scheduled until four o'clock. Our witnesses have been good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Did you want to propose...?

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

I get it, Mr. Chair. I just want to get to the bottom of stuff.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Okay.

In any case I would like to take this opportunity to thank both witnesses, both for your service to Canada and your willingness to come forward to the committee twice at a time when you're under a national spotlight. The men and women of Canada's public service across the country do an incredible job for all of us. I know that all of us, from all parties in Parliament, appreciate our public service.

I'd really like to thank all the employees of the Canada's public service.

I again especially thank the two of you.

We will suspend for two minutes to let the witnesses leave.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Colleagues, just before we get to Mr. Rankin's motion, the clerk has asked me to clarify one thing again. The document the Clerk just tabled is in English only. Would we have permission to circulate it,

and the translation will then be done, or do you prefer to have it once it's translated?

It's the document that he provided, that he received, from the justice department on solicitor-client....

Sir?

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

How long will it take to have it translated?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

It's about two and a half pages long.

Mr. Clerk, how much time will that take?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard]

Two business days maximum.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bécancour—Nicolet—Saurel, QC]

Mr. Chair, my answer is the same as the one I gave earlier. I'm surprised we can't table it in both languages, but I don't want to object to it being circulated.

I've been in Parliament for 35 years, and I understood a long time ago that the two official languages are English and translation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

It depends on who the witness is, but I entirely agree that it should be translated. I'm just going to ask...

Yes, Mr. Berthold?

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Chair, since it comes from the Clerk of the Privy Council, I assume he was aware of the obligations regarding what had to happen here in this committee. We're going to wait for the document to be translated before we accept it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

All right, that's fine. If people aren't in a hurry, we'll wait for the translation. We'll distribute the document once it's translated, probably next week, on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Mr. Rankin.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Chair, I look to you for guidance as to the receivability of the following motion, but I'll read it and then explain why I believe it's critical. My motion is: “That the committee (a) call on the Prime Minister to amend the order in council number 2019-0105 to allow the former attorney general to speak openly about any matters salient to the SNC-Lavalin matter after January 14, and to call as witnesses as soon as possible the following four individuals: Jessica Prince, former chief of staff to Ms. Wilson-Raybould; Katie Telford, chief of staff to the Prime Minister; Elder Marques, senior adviser to the Prime Minister; and Mathieu Bouchard, senior adviser to the Prime Minister.”

The reason I think this is so important is that there were two meetings that we heard a lot about today. One was on November 22, where Madam Wilson-Raybould met with Mr. Bouchard and Mr. Marques. Then there was the second meeting that her chief of staff took with Katie Telford. I think it's really important from a matter of natural justice and fairness to those individuals that we hear from them. Let me explain why.

It's hearsay what Ms. Prince recorded about her conversation. With respect, she said some very disturbing things attributed to Ms. Telford, namely, “We don't want to debate legalities anymore”, a direct quote. In fairness to Ms. Telford, we need to have her here, and we need to also have Ms. Prince here so we can get to the bottom of what appears to be a very serious issue. I think it's fair to both of them to do it. I think it's grossly unfair to not have that testimony.

Last, when it comes to the November 22 meeting with Mr. Bouchard, Mr. Marques and the former attorney general, there were some very serious things said about, “Enough is enough. I keep saying 'no'. I've made up my mind”, etc., and yet we know what transpired thereafter.

My point is fairness requires that we hear these witnesses. As to the first part of the motion, it seems grossly unfair, with all due respect, that we were allowing Mr. Butts to come and talk about what happened after she was removed from cabinet but she can't do so.

My plea to this committee is that in the interest of fairness, we allow this to occur.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

The motion is receivable. There's no problem. We'll get a speakers list.

I would just note, I don't believe he spoke about the period after she became the Veterans Affairs minister. He was speaking about the period—

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

He talked about when she was removed from cabinet today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

We'll have to all look at the transcript. I think he was largely talking about the period during the shuffle, which is before the new appointment, but we'll have to look at that.

In any case, the motion is receivable. Could I get a speakers list? Who wants to intervene?

I have Mr. Poilievre, Mr. Fraser, Ms. Raitt and Mr. Cooper.

Then there's Mr. Berthold.

Mr. Poilievre.