Justice Committee on March 6th, 2019

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I put it to you, Mr. Wernick. You're asked about threatening the attorney general; you're asked about treading on dangerous ground, and you tell our committee, “I wasn't wearing a wire” and, “Sorry, I don't remember.”

Mr. Wernick, that is not a credible answer. You are the Clerk of the Privy Council. If you come to a meeting and you can't remember threatening the Attorney General and you tell us, “Sorry, I wasn't wearing a wire”, I suggest, Mr. Wernick, that the brazen and reckless interference referred to by five former attorneys general refers directly to you. If you cannot answer that question, you have no business being in that job.

[Michael Wernick]

I have said at this committee before, and I will say again, I did not threaten the Attorney General in any way.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But you don't remember. You told us you don't remember; you weren't wearing a wire—

[Michael Wernick]

I'm telling you now, Mr. Angus, if you want the answer—

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Please let him finish the answer to the question.

[Michael Wernick]

I have never raised partisan considerations. I reminded her repeatedly she was the final decision-maker. I did not attempt to influence her decision. I was giving her relevant context about public interest considerations. I did not suggest any consequences for her. I made no threats to the former attorney general, period.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So now you remember.

I will end on this. She said she expected the Saturday night massacre, which is a reference to Richard Milhous Nixon and the firing of the special prosecutor. Lo and behold, she was replaced two weeks later.

I think Ms. Wilson-Raybould's testimony is very credible. I'm very sad that you get a second kick at the can and she's not been given a chance to rebut what you're saying today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you, Mr. Angus—

[Michael Wernick]

Mr. Chair, if I may.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Yes, Mr. Wernick, you may respond to that.

[Michael Wernick]

I note that many members at this committee have said they believe every word of the former attorney general's testimony. Part of what she testified is she does not believe that any behaviour crossed the threshold of criminal behaviour.

That was her testimony.

[An hon. member]

That's the bar? It's not criminal?

[An hon. member]

You need to commit a crime.

[Michael Wernick]

That was her testimony.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

No cross-talk back and forth....

Thank you very much.

That concludes—

[An hon. member]

I am not a crook.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Guys, this is not now a time for debate, this is now a question of whether or not we move to a third round. I think there is sufficient time for one more round. Does everybody agree?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Do we agree again that at the end of this round we give three minutes to each of the three other parties here?

Perfect.

In the third round it will be the first six minutes to the Conservatives, six minutes to the Liberals, six minutes to the NDP, six minutes to the Liberals, and then three minutes to each of the other three interveners.

Ms. Raitt.

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to refer Mr. Wernick to the documents he provided to us this afternoon that we had requested last time.

I'm wondering if you can give me a bit of help with the handwritten notes. Do you have a copy of them there?

[Michael Wernick]

I believe so.

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

In the handwritten notes of your COO, deputy secretary to the cabinet, midway down it says, “were looking forward to DPA”—this is what SNC-Lavalin says—“initial indication with” minister is to discussion.

Can you give me a bit more colour as to what's being said there?

[Michael Wernick]

I believe these are a transcription of the words from the company.

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Milton, ON]

Yes, do you recall what the comment was there?

[Michael Wernick]

Which part are you referring to?