Evidence of meeting #147 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was non-disclosure.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:30 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Dr. Tyndall, in your experience, what is at the root of criminalizing HIV when we don't do that for hep B or hep C or herpes?
10:30 a.m.
Lead of Research and Evaluation, BC Centre for Disease Control
It's fear and stigma. There's still so much stigma around HIV. I always argue you can't destigmatize something that's criminalized, whether it's drugs or this kind of issue. We're talking of two totally different ends of the spectrum. If our goal is to destigmatize HIV, how can you live in a society where it's a criminal offence?
10:35 a.m.
Associate Professor, MacEwan University, As an Individual
Yes, I think a lot of it comes back to the early origins when people thought this was a disease impacting gay men. I think we still largely deal with much of that stigma surrounding this and have to look at the role of homophobia through our courts, through our Criminal Code. That quite simply must end. It's 2019. This country defends human rights, LGBTQ issues across the world, and we must lead by example. Currently in this area we're not leading by example.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Half my time is almost up.
Dr. Tyndall, could you share any studies with us that bear out what you said, that new infections are happening predominantly among communities that don't know their status, and the virus is being transmitted? That would be extremely helpful, because that tells us where the new infections are coming from.
Dr. Wells, we have a deputy minister of Alberta Crown Prosecution Service that indicated in January that they're respecting the Supreme Court of Canada Mabior decision and the federal directive. No more policy was put in place before the provincial election.
I'll say this plainly: I have concerns about what the new government might do vis-à-vis GSAs. Shelley, you said something about how we don't want to out kids in school who are trying to figure out their identities, yet we out people who are also youth because of their HIV status, so both are unfair and both are harmful.
Dr. Wells, what more can we do at the prosecutorial level in Alberta and at the enforcement level, at the police training level, so that people aren't charged inappropriately and they're not prosecuted inappropriately?
10:35 a.m.
Associate Professor, MacEwan University, As an Individual
First, the Alberta example would be that the solicitor general needs to come out with a public statement reiterating support for the Attorney General's commitments regarding the prosecution of persons living with HIV and non-disclosure.
Secondly, I think we need to have training for not only our Crown but for our police services. That training needs to be done in partnership with organizations like HIV, where those individuals who are directly impacted are sharing their experiences. It's that process of humanization that often changes behaviour. It's the process that changes our laws. It's really the process that changes our understanding in society.
It's clarity, consistency, education and training.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
We just had a historic apology from the Edmonton Police Service to the LGBTQ2 communities. That was not the end but the beginning of a new relationship.
I know that you sit on an advisory committee for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in our region. Is there any sort of training or work that's happening in this space yet, to your knowledge?
10:35 a.m.
Associate Professor, MacEwan University, As an Individual
Not directly, to my knowledge.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you.
I have a question for both of you.
Do you think it would make sense for us to have a working group of justice officials, perhaps parliamentarians and civil society members, on the issue of the changes to the Criminal Code?
10:35 a.m.
Executive Director, HIV Edmonton
I think it would be fabulous to have that, not only at the federal and provincial level but also the municipal level. We're talking about the police services at the municipal level working to increase education, understanding and developing the right strategies to use to help mitigate any sudden missed ways of doing it.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Dr. Wells, could you see wisdom in having a federal-provincial-territorial meeting of the ministers of justice? Would that be helpful in having more uniformity and applicability across the country? Would that be useful in this issue?
10:35 a.m.
Associate Professor, MacEwan University, As an Individual
Absolutely. I think it's not only useful but it's desperately needed.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Shelley, I'll ask this quickly, because I have about a half a minute left.
With regard to intersectionality, this issue that you see every day—indigenous, queer, people of colour, women, street sex workers—how does this issue touch people with multiple intersectionalities?
10:35 a.m.
Executive Director, HIV Edmonton
It really goes back to those initial determinants of health that I mentioned in the presentation, and the issues of racism and all of the other aspects of power differentials.
What's really important is that our legislation looks toward changing those health inequities to make it so that testing and treatment are accessible, and that education and prevention are also available, no matter where you are.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses, who really illustrate the kind of coalition that's brought progress on the fight against HIV/AIDS—the front-line services, the academics and the medical research people. It's a good, well-balanced panel for that.
I think we've heard a lot of evidence, and I think people are unanimous in saying that the criminalization of HIV through sexual assault has to go. However, there are some other things I've been trying to get us to look at when we're talking about reform of the Criminal Code. That's the impact of other parts of the Criminal Code on non-disclosure and on the barriers to testing, and that's the criminalization of drug use and the criminalization of sex work.
I'm going to start with Ms. Williams on those questions.
Do you see these aspects of criminal law as having an impact here?
10:40 a.m.
Executive Director, HIV Edmonton
Absolutely, both in the aspect of sex workers and in the aspect of drug policy and working with the supervised consumption services. Testing is key. That's an element that's absolutely necessary to allow at the sites, and to ensure treatment.
However, treatment becomes difficult...and that's why I'm also suggesting that when HIV is diagnosed, it's important that it's wrapped around the individual and it's meeting their particular needs. We don't just say you have to take a pill, but we're supporting the individual to be able to take the medication.
10:40 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Mr. Tyndall, on the same question about the other aspects of the Criminal Code that might inhibit access to testing and treatment...?
10:40 a.m.
Lead of Research and Evaluation, BC Centre for Disease Control
If you're using drugs, this non-disclosure thing is pretty low on your priority list.
We're trying to give people the message that this is really dangerous. You should not be exposing people to HIV because of criminalization. I mean, in that situation, we're dealing with people who are multiply criminalized for situations that they didn't ask for. I think they're all highly intertwined.
I'm very much on the forefront of pushing for legalization of drugs. We need to reform our sex work laws. We do a lot of damage to people, which certainly is terrible for them individually but also has huge implications for society in general.
I think they're all quite linked, and HIV non-disclosure is not high on their priority list, for the most part.
10:40 a.m.
Associate Professor, MacEwan University, As an Individual
I agree. The common thread is that we need to treat these all as public health issues and concerns, and develop a multi-faceted strategy that really starts to take this out of the shadows, shame and stigma, and puts it together to say we need to help to support vulnerable populations to get the education, the treatment and the support that they not only need but deserve as Canadian citizens.
