Yes.
Evidence of meeting #149 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was criminal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #149 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was criminal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Do we have any records of how many cases we are looking at in the span of a year or over the past number of years? How many cases have we seen where someone has intentionally spread HIV to unassuming victims?
9:25 a.m.
Professor, York University, As an Individual
I don't think that's a question that can be answered because that's not the standard that has been used to convict people.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Okay, but you did say that it is a very rare instance for people to be intentionally spreading a virus for the purpose of inflicting harm on other people.
9:25 a.m.
Professor, York University, As an Individual
Certainly, and as my colleague has indicated, people living with HIV in general take great care to ensure the safety and health of their sex partners.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Do you think, then, that these types of fears, that people are going out and spreading HIV on purpose, etc., have to do with a stigma associated with the illness, and, in fact, the demographic that is involved as well?
9:25 a.m.
Professor, York University, As an Individual
The media reporting of criminal cases certainly contributes to this type of public perception. A few years ago, I had an opportunity to read all of the newspaper stories that we could accumulate about HIV non-disclosure criminal cases, from the very beginning to around 2016. It was about 1,600 newspaper articles. They are almost univocal in representing defendants as despicable people who are ruthless and have no regard for anyone. It's the type of representation that an earlier member of the committee represented.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
9:25 a.m.
Professor, York University, As an Individual
In answer to the question, I would say that media does do that.
It is particularly the case that the media has focused on a small number of cases—actually four cases—involving African Caribbean black male defendants. I think about 60% of the coverage focuses only on those cases. It generates the type of profile of the person living with HIV who doesn't disclose as a type of racialized, oversexed, irresponsible and callous individual. That's the type of representation you do find in the media, so I do think it feeds that type of stereotype.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you very much.
Mr. Vijayanathan, in some of your recommendations you also talked about stigma and mentioned its impact on South Asian communities, or on communities of visible minorities in general. I will turn to the other two groups representing minorities as well, but can you explain a little bit about whether it's.... We talked about legal reform, but how we combat the stigma to really ensure that fewer and fewer people are transmitting the virus.
Can you talk about some of the impacts of minorities and racism, perhaps, on the communities that are impacted, and what measures can be taken to really reach the 90-90-90 goal, other than legal reform?
9:30 a.m.
Executive Director, Alliance for South Asian AIDS Prevention
As Eric mentioned, there is a stereotype in terms of who gets HIV, how they got HIV, and how they spread HIV. Those are, unfortunately, the historical accounts that have happened since the early epidemic, and they still maintain their way through. With the whole notion of criminalizing HIV as a virus, it continues to keep HIV as that dirty death sentence that is not going to change or that people aren't going to live active, healthy, long lives as people are now given the treatment and technologies that are available to individuals.
When you look at South Asian communities who test positive for HIV, for example, my staff take them to HIV & AIDS Legal Clinic Ontario or South Asian Legal Clinic of Ontario after they get diagnosed and before they even go to medical care, simply because they need legal advice in terms of how they disclose, when they disclose and to whom they disclose, and so that they're supported in that process knowing that I don't want my brown folks to face that racism that exists as well as being layered with HIV on top of that.
We have a significant issue. Again, because of the whole notion of criminalization and, again, based on the few stories that are reported in the media, a lot of people are fearful of getting tested for what that means to them in their lives in Canada. Many of our folks have lost jobs, and many folks have lost families and friends, so there's more of a deterrent to go get tested, and we're open about having conversations about a manageable chronic illness, as the Public Health Agency of Canada has stated. We should act in a responsible way of not criminalizing to aggravated sexual assault and look at what the accountability framework gives for an individual who has committed a crime.
Again, if we could really speak to the stigma and the discrimination and understand why people are doing what they're doing, then we're able to get them tested sooner. We're able to get them to access treatment sooner, maintain an undetectable viral sooner and allow them to be less of a strain on the medical system as well as the legal system and the complete health care system.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for being here today. I know it was a concern of many committee members, since marginalized Canadians are quite often subject to prosecution, that we hear from those communities, so it's very important for you to be here today.
I want to start by asking a question that surrounds the context of barriers to testing. From my experience, people who are marginalized already face a lot of barriers to testing, and this becomes yet another barrier.
I'm going to start with Mr. Morrisseau-Beck.
When I was visiting some northern communities and talking about AIDS treatment, they were talking about things like the reluctance of people to go to health professionals in small communities because of the stigma and the “my auntie works there” factor. I just wondered whether you could comment on the access to testing and treatment barriers that already exist without the criminalization.
9:30 a.m.
President and Chair, Ontario Aboriginal HIV/AIDS Strategy
That's a very good question, and a very quick answer is that the Ontario Aboriginal HIV/AIDS Strategy is working on looking at various testing simply because, within our communities, we are already stigmatized and discriminated against, and access to health care within the northern communities is another level of barriers.
We are working with partners in the different jurisdictions where we provide services to look at how we can eliminate some of those barriers. Part of that is education to indigenous peoples, so that's sort of where we're at right now.
This has been going on for a very, very long time since the epidemic earlier on. I remember when I was tested positive, it was very difficult to access these different types of services and programs. In that context, we are just sort of starting that process of trying to look at what those barriers will be and trying to eliminate them.
Thanks.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Mr. Vijayanathan, would you like to comment on that same question for South Asian communities?
9:35 a.m.
Executive Director, Alliance for South Asian AIDS Prevention
As I said, the whole “auntie works there” phenomenon happens in South Asian and Middle Eastern communities as well, especially if they're new to the country or they're trying to figure out their ways.
Oftentimes a barrier to testing, especially for international folks and international students particularly, who are coming into this country spending double the tuition fees, is that they are not getting accurate, effective insurance coverage for testing and access to treatment, etc. Those are all barriers.
Again, when you add the criminal factor to it, committing a crime has far more of a wall to overcome than some of those other issues. We, as social service organizations, can work with individuals when they present themselves to overcome some of the other barriers and challenges based on the availability of services, but that criminal barrier really makes it a further jump, and again, it's our connection to HIV/AIDS legal clinics that help us with that.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thanks very much. I think at this point in Parliament it's clear we're going to try to give some scope to reform.
I want to ask another question here because there are two aspects. There's the justice aspect and there's the public health aspect. Are there other aspects of the Criminal Code that criminalize behaviour, which also contributes to a fear of testing? I would include in those the criminalization of sex work and the criminalization of drug use.
I'll start with Mr. Vijayanathan.
9:35 a.m.
Executive Director, Alliance for South Asian AIDS Prevention
Those are things that we're constantly dealing with on a daily basis. A lot of folks who we work with have engaged in the sex trade in the past, or are active drug users, for various reasons. It's the whole criminalization aspect of it instead of looking at the individuals and the issues that they're facing and how we move them forward rather than criminalizing them for an activity. Oftentimes it's a lot of education. Again, we're doing well in that, but we're not dealing with the health issue there, where it is a health issue. We're actually dealing with a legal issue. To take people to a legal clinic before we access the health care sector is actually already further pushing them away from adhering to treatment even, or actively seeking more help in health.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Mr. Morrisseau-Beck, would you have any comment on the other aspects of the criminal law that might impact access to services or testing?
9:35 a.m.
President and Chair, Ontario Aboriginal HIV/AIDS Strategy
We work with marginalized populations, those who are homeless and those who are working in the sex trade. I think just engaging with them under the auspices of criminalization makes it quite hard for us to engage with that population if they're already involved in the justice and criminal processes. I would say that for us it's difficult to actually work with these individuals. Again, as I said in my statement around the trust factor, trying to build trust with those populations with criminalization on top, it's very difficult.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I was just going to ask Ms. Ongoiba the same question about barriers to testing in the African Canadian and Carribean community.
9:35 a.m.
Executive Director, Africans in Partnership Against AIDS
I'll answer in French.
