Justice Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2017

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

A lot of times the provinces do have a different point of view. They want the cheque, but they don't want the federal government to be too specific about where it goes. It's really a two-pronged thing. You have to have both sides agreeing, because very often the province says, “Keep sending us bigger cheques and we'll decide where it's going to go.”

You said in your testimony as well that you've seen a 45% increase in refugee legal aid services. Are you seeing more people from Mexico now claiming refugee status? I appreciate that it has only been a couple of months since they've had the opportunity to come into the country without a visa, but have you seen any increase in that area?

[David Field]

I think it's pretty early to tell. I think we have seen some increases. I wouldn't say it's fairly significant as of yet, but certainly that is another risk that's on the horizon for us as a service delivery organization.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Who then comprises the 45% increase? Is it people from Syria, the Middle East?

[David Field]

Our largest source of refugee applicants is Nigeria, and second is China. The changes in the Middle East, and certainly the uncertainty that is present there, could potentially add again to the pressures that we're seeing. There's certainly a lot of risk for us as an organization that the demand for our services will continue to grow.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Do you get together with your other provincial or territorial counterparts, and are there better examples of how the allocation of funding takes place, in your opinion, than what we experience here in Ontario?

[David Field]

I think if you look at the funding that other legal aid plans receive, it's significantly less than what we receive. For example, none of the other provinces have community legal aid clinics. We have 76. We spend about $80 million on community clinics. None of the other provinces have similar services.

We have the Association of Legal Aid Plans. We meet on a regular basis to compare notes. I think many of our colleagues are under financial pressure from the provinces to save resources. They look at us with some envy in that we just received a fairly significant increase in an investment for legal and financial eligibility.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Will this increase that you've received help alleviate or assist you in the area of family law services? What is putting the pressure on that? Is it the increase in refugee claimants, or is it just overall budgetary constraints and difficulties?

[David Field]

The funds that we were provided with were specifically targeted to increasing our financial eligibility. If we didn't spend the money on financial eligibility, then those funds had to be returned to the province. It didn't really help us with our ongoing operating pressures, and it does help to a certain extent with refugees, but not.... Many of the refugee clients have no income, and it hasn't really had an impact in that area. We do see an increase in refugee claims, but I don't think it's really related to the financial eligibility issues at all.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Fair enough.

Those additional services, the new eligible services, are they part of what you're trying to do in the area of family law, in mediation and other things? Is that what you're specifically referring to?

[David Field]

In addition to the funds we receive for legal and financial eligibility, a number of years ago the province committed $30 million over three years to address issues related specifically to family law. We did expand our mediation. We're trying to invest our services in areas in family law that take the cases out of the court system and speed things up so it doesn't put pressure on other aspects of the court system.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That's good.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

There's one minute left. Do you want to ask a question, Mrs. Boucher?

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am new here, since I'm replacing a member of the committee today.

Mr. Field, to my knowledge, legal aid comes under provincial jurisdiction. Have you estimated the amount that you would like to receive from the federal government to help you? Could you give us an amount or a percentage?

Do you understand the question?

[David Field]

Yes. I'm weighing my answer.

The federal government has made a commitment to increase criminal legal aid services. The thing is, it doesn't come anywhere close to a 50/50 split between the Province of Ontario and the federal government. I think in the past that was the target. If you look at how much money we're spending—$440 million, $55 million for criminal and another $10 million for refugees—you do the math, and it's not a 50/50 split. Anything would be great.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

You said that very well. It would be great.

Mr. Bittle.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you so much.

Perhaps I misheard, but you said there is reducing demand for criminal justice services for vulnerable groups. I was wondering if you could expand on that.

[David Field]

Increasing?

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Reducing demand for—

[David Field]

Oh, yes.

If you look at our stats, there is an overrepresentation of marginalized groups within the criminal justice system. How can we reduce that? We have an overrepresentation of aboriginal clients. The aboriginal population in Ontario is 5%; 15% of our clients self-identified as aboriginal. How do we develop strategies to address some of the unique challenges that people from marginalized parts of society have so we can reduce their overrepresentation in the criminal justice system?

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

From a judicial reform or Criminal Code reform standpoint, is there a role for the federal government? What do you see as the federal government's role in achieving that objective?

[David Field]

One of the things it started to do is to look at issues related to Gladue. It looked at issues related to sentencing and what other influences and demands for services we could identify, such as issues related to bail. One of the challenges we have is that clients get into the system and then they accelerate and come back again and again. How do we stop that treadmill of charges in the system?

I think it's not just a federal issue. I think it's an issue for all levels of government to consider what we can do in the area of improving access to justice for clients who are marginalized. There are mental health issues as well, and an overrepresentation in the system of clients who have mental illness. Those are areas that I think the federal government and the provincial government should be looking at. If we can address these issues and keep people out of the criminal justice system, it does, I think, benefit everyone.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

You mentioned mental health. My understanding is that a third of LAO clients have a mental health issue. There are many diversion programs, bail programs, etc., but they're localized and are different at various courthouses. Would a standardized approach work? If that's the case, how would you see that rolling out?

[David Field]

David, would you like to answer?

[David McKillop]

Sure.

There is very much a patchwork of programs available for incarcerated individuals in terms of mental health. Some of it is on an institution-by-institution basis. I know that the jurisdiction of this room is not for provincial institutions, but there are almost no programs for mental health or addictions at the provincial level. We're talking about federal institutions where the sentence is two years or more. There is very much a patchwork of programs there, and I think we would be very much in support of seeing national standards with that type of programming.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Because I know my Conservative friends might get a little upset at the talk of reducing mandatory minimum sentences, can you explain why LAO is calling for a reduction of those types of sentences? I think we acknowledge on our side that mandatory minimums can be good, especially for violent offences, but why is LAO calling for a reduction?