Justice Committee on Feb. 21st, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you.

Are there other questions related to the bill? I have one if, it's okay with the members of the committee.

I've been listening. I fully understand what you were both saying about the targeting of, for example, an allied business that's flying the pride flag, or the targeting of somebody's home, which happens in all communities.

Do you see a distinction in the targeting of an LGBTQ community centre, or an office that clearly represents a group within the community, or a building that's been rented out for a one-time purpose during pride week when everybody knows that it's an LGBTQ event and there's vandalism, versus against somebody's private home, where in no case, for religious purposes or other purposes, do we recognize that as being subject to this provision?

[Mickey Wilson]

No. To be really blunt, no.

The ripple through the community is the same. If somebody's home is vandalized and that's a member of our community, we all wonder who's next. We also wonder if that person is going to get caught, because most often they aren't. If they are caught, we wonder if they will be prosecuted, and often they're not.

I would say that the impact is more about scale, perhaps, than it is about whether there's an impact or not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Okay.

[Dr. Kristopher Wells]

I would agree. Part of the challenge as well is that when we start to parse people from places, because people's identities are not so easily divided, right? We're talking about identity-based crimes, so it doesn't necessarily matter where they happen. The impact they have, the targeting of the very essence of who a person is, is why we have hate crimes legislation to begin with.

I'm particularly concerned about some of those commercial spaces that serve de facto as community spaces, through this legislation. As I've mentioned, due to circumstances of history, many of the bars and nightclubs that have been fugitive spaces have been the only spaces. I can well recall walking down back alleys where places didn't have doors, because it wasn't safe to put up a sign to say that they were gay establishments. My, how far Canada has come.

Right now, I think we have a real opportunity to strengthen Canada's leadership on LGBTQ issues, on human rights issues, not just domestically but internationally. There is currently a void globally, and I certainly hope this government will not have any fear of stepping into that void, because, as has been said, the world needs more of Canada right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

I will follow up, because I understand what you're saying and I am just trying to better understand this.

For example, the way the bill is currently worded, as I read it anyway, unless you're defining it as a social space, a gay nightclub wouldn't be covered by the current provisions of the bill. What you're saying is that for the gay community, it is just as much a gathering space and a safe space as a Mennonite cultural centre or a Jewish cultural centre is, because that's where the community identifies, feels comfortable with each other and can gather, and it should be treated equally, just like the other spaces set out here in the bill. Is that right?

[Dr. Kristopher Wells]

Absolutely. It should be in the definition, so that someone would not have to wonder if that were covered as a social space and somebody would not have to look and say, “That's a commercial space. That doesn't apply.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Yes.

[Dr. Kristopher Wells]

I would hate to see something like that happen or be said to a community that is suffering and hurting right now. We know that those kinds of spaces are the ones most likely to be targeted and attacked.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you.

That helps a lot.

[Mickey Wilson]

If you recall, after the Pulse nightclub incident, that was one of the conversations in our community. This was a space where people assumed they would be safe, and somebody else came in and took that safety away.

With all of the spaces, safety is so important for all the identifiable groups. Safe space for queer and trans people is sometimes not so easily identifiable by a particular institution.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Understood.

Not seeing any more questions, I want to thank both of you for your compelling testimony today. Thank you for helping us in our study of the bill, and thank you for coming all the way from western Canada.

The meeting is adjourned.