Justice Committee on March 10th, 2016

[Brian Saunders]

This is Mr. Dolhai's program so I'll ask him to answer.

[George Dolhai]

It's my side of the house, and we do have one case right now where the judge has indicated concern that may amount to not proceeding. It's the only one that I'm aware of, however.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

What province is that in?

[George Dolhai]

I don't recall. I'd have to provide that to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. Fraser.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Is he going to provide that to us?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Yes, that's what I asked him.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Is he going to get that information to this committee?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

That's what he just undertook, yes.

[George Dolhai]

I will do it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you.

Mr. Fraser.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your presentation and for being here today.

Getting back to the supplementary estimates (C), you mentioned the crown witness support program, which is part of the funding that's being appropriated in the supplementary estimates. I'm wondering if you can explain how exactly that program works, how useful it is, and if it is across the country evenly. I think you mentioned that those ones that are being hired with this money are going up north. Can you expand on that, please?

[Brian Saunders]

I'll start and then I'll ask Mr. Dolhai to fill in any details that I might miss. The program is only in the north of Canada. We have 16 crown witness coordinators spread among our three offices. We have an office in Iqaluit, one in Whitehorse, and one in Yellowknife. As I indicated, they work with victims trying to help them understand the system and putting them in touch with territorial social services if they require that type of assistance.

They're invaluable, particularly in all three jurisdictions, but in Nunavut, as you're aware, 85% of the population is Innu. The crown witness coordinators there speak Inuktitut, so they're able to communicate with the witnesses and the victims in their native language, and that is a great assistance in helping these people better understand the criminal justice system.

We found the program to be very effective in allowing us to bridge the gap between prosecutors who generally are from the south of Canada and deal with the population that lives up there.

Mr. Dolhai can add to that.

[George Dolhai]

To be clear, it is just in the north, but we have 20 CWCs, crown witness coordinators. They're spread evenly among the three territories in the north, except for Nunavut, which has an additional one who was provided for in relation to the funds that are before you in the supplementary (C)s because of the particular dynamic there. They are not the counsel for or assistant to the victim per se. What they are there to do is to assist witnesses with the criminal process so that they're familiar with it, and so that they can deliver their evidence in an effective way before a court. For example, we have developed a tool which has magnets that move around on a mock-up of a court. This helps to explain, especially to a child, what's going to actually happen. For many people, this will be their only time in court. It's very important that they feel comfortable with the process and feel that they are supported as witnesses in the process. That's where our crown witness coordinators come in. It really is an invaluable tool.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

I have one quick follow-up question.

You say that the program is effective. I'm wondering how you know it's working. If the witnesses are more comfortable, better prepared, and able to give better evidence, is there an increase in the rate of convictions? How do you measure it?

[George Dolhai]

We measure it by determining whether the witnesses are more comfortable and whether they are able to deliver their evidence. The feedback we have received has been consistently positive with respect to it. In some areas, for example, you may have a situation where you're in a small community and virtually everyone in that community for one reason or another is on the side of the accused. The CWC is sometimes the only person on the other side of that courtroom who is there to help the witness get through their testimony. That's the feedback we get from them.

Mr. Saunders mentioned being able to communicate in Inuktitut, which is critical in Nunavut. In the other jurisdictions as well, we have access to those services if required.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My colleagues have more questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Do any other Liberal MPs want to ask any questions?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

You mentioned something in the very good presentation you made today about 550 prosecutors you have on retainer. Could you please expand on that?

[Brian Saunders]

You mean the 530 prosecutors that we have?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Yes. You mentioned that you have prosecutors you maintain on retainer so that you can use them throughout the country.

[Brian Saunders]

No, we have 530 prosecutors and they are spread around the country. For example, in the office in Toronto, we have 120 prosecutors there and they would be responsible for conducting prosecutions in Toronto and in southwestern Ontario.

In addition to the staff prosecutors, we also retain the services of private sector lawyers to act as agents. They would cover areas where we don't have a regional office, and sometimes they would assist us in cases where a regional office might find itself overworked and we could hire a private sector lawyer to help take some of the overload in those circumstances.

I don't know if that answers your question.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

It does. I was just seeking clarification on the prosecutors.

Do you find that the number of prosecutors currently in the system is enough to cover the demand?

[Brian Saunders]

Yes. We keep track of our caseload. We also keep track of the time.

You heard from Mr. Pentney, before me, that lawyers within the Department of Justice keep track of all their time, and we do that as well. All our prosecutors have to record the time they spend on files and the time they spend at work, essentially.

We're able to keep track of the number of files, the complexity of the files, and the time. Using those metrics—and speaking to our local managers, because figures sometimes can be misleading—we take those factors into account in determining just what the workload is. If demand is going up in one area, we're able to shift resources, not quickly sometimes, but we're able to shift resources to meet increasing demand.

[George Dolhai]

We also have a group of the most senior litigators, senior general counsel, across the country. They are expected to be prepared to assist in a case in another jurisdiction either through providing advice, doing part of the case, or doing a whole case. Doing that ensures cross-pollination among our folks.